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Slim
07-05-2004, 11:56 PM
Curious, is there a general anti-Bush sentiment in
the Caribbean and all points south? I assume
that is does not effect American and Canadian
tourists. Some times we are taken to be "American".
We are, by the way, but don't insist.

Slim Tim

**
Friday, May 7, 2004
National news of Trinidad and Tobago


How we lost Roy

US Ambassador Dr Roy Austin found himself at the receiving end of a
fusillade of unflattering press this week, roundly pilloried after his
comments at a media event rattled the scribes.

Speaking at last Sunday's Commonwealth Journalists Association (CJA)
launch of an exhibition mounted at UWI's Learning Resource Centre in
St Augustine, Roy waded into his hosts, carping against what he saw as
a deliberately collective anti-American stance, shoring up that lonely
perception by attempting to sell US President George W Bush as a
do-gooder.

Reports indicate some members of the audience sought to interrupt his
presentation with mordant applause, others resorted to open heckling,
shouting "rubbish", "nonsense", "foolishness". One among them went the
whole nine yards (as Americans would say), booing the envoy
"frank'omment"-as we would say.

Now, it is not known whether Roy left his Flagstaff Hill residence
intent on causing an uproar at the gathering but hearing another
speaker, UWI vice chancellor Prof Rex Nettleford, describe US
President George W Bush as "a weapon of mass distraction", was
something Roy clearly couldn't leave unattended; for such is the
nature of his job.

Frankly, I find it difficult to reconcile taciturn endorsement of Prof
Nettleford's comment while castigating Roy, given the occasion and the
fact that the US Ambassador was invited in a revered capacity. If
we're into calling a spade a spade, then it should be said that a
derisive statement about the US President in that scenario was at
least inhospitable and may have helped trigger Roy's rabid response.

No diplomat anywhere is likely to turn the other cheek if his
president is held up to ridicule in a public forum. Roy clearly felt
the need to respond immediately and in precise terms, probably
remembering advice once given by Britain's wartime prime minister,
Winston Churchill: "If you have an important point to make, don't try
to be subtle or clever. Use the pile driver. Hit the point once. Then
come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time; a tremendous
whack."

On the evidence, Roy had also been nursing a grievance over refusal of
four newspapers to print in full a speech in which he labelled us all
as bashers of his native land and its leader. Given the conspiracy of
circumstances, the Ambassador went for the media's jugular.

Which is precisely where we lost Roy (as calypsonian Chalkdust would
say).

What his press attaché failed to tell him is that newspapers (even in
his own country) would hardly print a speech in full except it was a
matter of grave national import. Indeed, like everything else it would
compete for the editor's assent with other material sent by people
equally certain that what they had written was deserving of the
public's ear, or eye to be more accurate.

Still, to call an apple pie an apple pie, anti-American sentiment
running high globally, it is entirely possible that many of my
professional colleagues harbour uncomplimentary private thoughts about
the US and George Bush but to suggest there was some kind of sinister
plot to routinely discredit Roy's seniors, is at least one rung short
of reason and resembled the very indiscretion of which he accused the
media.

Interestingly, Roy's contention was supported Wednesday by no lesser
person than Media Complaints Council chairman Michael Williams, to
whom he had written a protest. Speaking under the same aegis that
hosted the US Ambassador Sunday, Williams said: "They (the media) are
anti-American to the extent that people are anti-American because of
the behaviour of America. That's a fact."

Indeed, anti-Bush sentiment must be an irritant to that country's
diplomats worldwide. Even in the US, moves are often made to suppress
such feelings.

The New York Times reported Tuesday that the Walt Disney Company is
blocking its Miramax division (which it can legally do) from
distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly
criticises President Bush. The film, Fahrenheit 911, links Bush and
prominent Saudis-including the family of Osama bin Laden-and
criticises Mr Bush's actions before and after the September 11
terrorist attacks.

Like Disney, Roy has his turf to defend. He joins a fairly long list
of local politicians who have taken swipes at the media when its
reportage is deemed unfriendly. His predecessors, most notably Sally
Cowal and Charles Gargano, were not without their moments of media
bashing and, I suspect, if the US administration changes next
November, whoever follows Roy might fall prey to the same predicament.

Now, I have come to know Roy on a different level, as a fellow-regular
at the Mas Camp Pub, frequenter of panyards and in general, supporter
of indigenous arts and culture, as evidenced as recently as Saturday
last when he won the door prize at the Chefs Royal cookout at QRC.

Perhaps out of these experiences, he will develop a better
understanding of calypso and use that medium to make his point on
delicate issues, as Chalkdust has so often done with songs like
"Nixon's Mistake", "My Way of Protest", "Uncle Sam Own We", "Bush
Yard", "Uncle Sam's Policy", "CNN Society" and, of course, "Ah Lost
Roy".

Earl Colby Pottinger
08-05-2004, 01:57 AM
timclifton@canada.com (Slim) :

> The New York Times reported Tuesday that the Walt Disney Company is
> blocking its Miramax division (which it can legally do) from
> distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly
> criticises President Bush. The film, Fahrenheit 911, links Bush and
> prominent Saudis-including the family of Osama bin Laden-and
> criticises Mr Bush's actions before and after the September 11
> terrorist attacks.

And if you check any further you will find out that Moore admits that he lied
about this as he *NEVER* had a contract with Disney to distribute his film.
He made the original claim for PR purposes and as per your statement above it
is working too!

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Jessica Simpson
08-05-2004, 02:56 PM
> > The New York Times reported Tuesday that .. Walt Disney .. is
> > blocking its Miramax division .. from
> > distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore
>
> And if you check any further you will find out that Moore admits that he
lied
> about this as he *NEVER* had a contract with Disney to distribute his
film.
> He made the original claim for PR purposes


Here was the story:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3565069&thesection=news&t
hesubsection=world

BTW, Michael Moore is blocking Miramax from distributing Charleton Heston's
film about him, or so I hear from the puiblicists......

Jessica Simpson
08-05-2004, 02:56 PM
> Curious, is there a general anti-Bush sentiment in
> the Caribbean and all points south? I assume
> that is does not effect American and Canadian
> tourists.

I've never run into serious anti-American sentiment in the southern
Caribbean. Quite the contrary, everywhere you go, people express their
dreams of coming to the US, and believe it or not, the Grenada invasion was
popular with the Grenadians. Having said this - and this may come as a shock
to some - there are actually places in the world, the southern Caribbean
being among them, where not everyone thinks about America, American politics
and Americans 24-7-52.......

Yaofeng
09-05-2004, 12:57 PM
"Jessica Simpson" <jesssimp@adventure.cam> wrote in message news:<sgYmc.1334$BJ6.117523@attbi_s51>...
> > Curious, is there a general anti-Bush sentiment in
> > the Caribbean and all points south? I assume
> > that is does not effect American and Canadian
> > tourists.
>
> I've never run into serious anti-American sentiment in the southern
> Caribbean. Quite the contrary, everywhere you go, people express their
> dreams of coming to the US, and believe it or not, the Grenada invasion was
> popular with the Grenadians. Having said this - and this may come as a shock
> to some - there are actually places in the world, the southern Caribbean
> being among them, where not everyone thinks about America, American politics
> and Americans 24-7-52.......

I think you're flattering yourself about Caribbeans expressing their
dream coming to the US. Their expression maybe only skin deep. What
is true though is there is almost no anti-US sentiment in the
Caribbean.

Why would people in the Caribbean think about America, American
politics and Americans? These Gringos and Gringas only mean tourist
business to them.

Wolfgang Barth
10-05-2004, 01:56 AM
Slim schrieb:

> Curious, is there a general anti-Bush sentiment in
> the Caribbean and all points south?
Not only there, but in all countries outside the US.
Even in the US the anti-Bush sentiment ist growing.

> I assume
> that is does not effect American and Canadian
> tourists. Some times we are taken to be "American".
>
If you do not show a "neoconservative"
(outside the US people prefer to say "imperialistic")
pro-Bush attitude, you will be welcome.

Wolfgang

DDupin
10-05-2004, 02:57 AM
Here in Boston we have a very large Caribbean community, which holds a popular
parade each year. There are people from Jamaica, Trinidad, Cuba, the Dominican,
Barbados, etc. (Plus a large Brazilian community.) They come here despite the
cold winters!
So I think your comment suggesting that it's self-flattering thinking that
Caribbean people want to move to the U.S. may not be entirely accurate. There
are thousands and thousands who do move here, and to other countries like
England.

I wonder whether it would get "claustrophobic" living on a small island for
year after year. I know that happens to people who move to Hawaii.



<< >>


<< Subject: Re: Anti-Bush sentiment in Trinidad and Tobago
From: ychen@bmwe30.net (Yaofeng) >>


<< I think you're flattering yourself about Caribbeans expressing their
dream coming to the US. Their expression maybe only skin deep. What
is true though is there is almost no anti-US sentiment in the
Caribbean.

Why would people in the Caribbean think about America, American
politics and Americans? These Gringos and Gringas only mean tourist
business to them.
>>

Slim
10-05-2004, 03:56 AM
On 8/05/04 5:14, in article sgYmc.1334$BJ6.117523@attbi_s51, "Jessica
Simpson" <jesssimp@adventure.cam> wrote:


> I've never run into serious anti-American sentiment in the southern
> Caribbean. Quite the contrary, everywhere you go, people express their
> dreams of coming to the US, and believe it or not, the Grenada invasion was
> popular with the Grenadians. Having said this - and this may come as a shock
> to some - there are actually places in the world, the southern Caribbean
> being among them, where not everyone thinks about America, American politics
> and Americans 24-7-52.......

I can see going to any place else if the gap in standard of living is
large. Most
of the Caribbean is not economically viable except through tourism.

I was in Grenada a year or so after the American intervention.
We came in on a sail boat, mostly French and we all spoke
French among ourselves, we were taken as French. We talked with some
of the natives and they did not give as positive a response to the
American intervention as you indicated. Perhaps times have changed.

I got into a long discussion with the director of the museum on
exports,
especially bananas prices (generally) and considerable bitterness
was expressed both towards the US and Europe.

Why not, bananas are 10 times more at the grocers than the price the
primary producer receives, this being standard with other crops in the
3rd world like coffee etc.

The "natives" anywhere may tend to not want to irritate people with
money
so I generally take "smiles" with a grain of salt unless I can have
a long time of talking with somebody. Or better, visit the area
a lot over a number of years.

Another time, recently, we spent a couple of hours talking
with the owner of a mountain top bar owner on the BVI and
he expressed a lot of anger about US with respect to their
agricultural polices.
He felt American policies were fueling the drug traffic in the
region. I know nothing about about that issue. We generally
sail out of the BVI and our relationship with the people
there are "neutral". Tourists are a necessity, that is all.

Generally Canada is left out of the economic argument because
we are relatively small. But never forget that Reagan once
called the Caribbean an "American lake". Google Reagan
and "American lake" and see. The real question is how much
the United States ends up dominating or controlling the
various islands in the Caribbean. If that influence
is too much it will create some problems.

Tim

Rhythmwize
10-05-2004, 06:56 AM
In article <e89d1e3e.0405081708.6e5bec5a@posting.google.com>, Yaofeng says...
>
>
>I think you're flattering yourself about Caribbeans expressing their
>dream coming to the US.

>Why would people in the Caribbean think about America, American
>politics and Americans?

Man, you are clearly out of touch.

The Caribbean people are thinking about America all the time.

They watch American TV..follow the sports, listen to rap music,
dress like Americans, talk about American politics on their Message
Boards,(check Grenada's http://www.spiceisle.com/talkshop), I could go on and
on. And, a good portion would move to the USA if given the opportunity.

I not telling you why, Im just saying its happening.

john

Yaofeng
10-05-2004, 11:57 PM
Rhythmwize <Rhythmwize_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c7lv2k0j9n@drn.newsguy.com>...
> In article <e89d1e3e.0405081708.6e5bec5a@posting.google.com>, Yaofeng says...
> >
> >
> >I think you're flattering yourself about Caribbeans expressing their
> >dream coming to the US.
>
> >Why would people in the Caribbean think about America, American
> >politics and Americans?
>
> Man, you are clearly out of touch.
>
> The Caribbean people are thinking about America all the time.
>
> They watch American TV..follow the sports, listen to rap music,
> dress like Americans, talk about American politics on their Message
> Boards,(check Grenada's http://www.spiceisle.com/talkshop), I could go on and
> on. And, a good portion would move to the USA if given the opportunity.
>
> I not telling you why, Im just saying its happening.
>
> john

The people in the Carribean you know may be thingking about America
all the time, not the ones I know. They got their own life and
problems to deal with. Why would they be thinking about something
unrelated to them thousands of miles away?

Rhythmwize
11-05-2004, 04:57 AM
In article <e89d1e3e.0405100433.22a32da2@posting.google.com>, Yaofeng says...
>
>The people in the Carribean you know may be thingking about America
>all the time, not the ones I know. They got their own life and
>problems to deal with. Why would they be thinking about something
>unrelated to them thousands of miles away?

Well, Im sure there are plenty of people in rural areas or shanty towns who
probably dont think much about America, especially those without a TV set. I
didnt mean to imply everyone in the Caribbean thinks about America... but that
America has a major influence on the culture and prosperity of many Caribbean
people and as such many pay attention to what is happening in the USA. What
happens in the USA is not unrelated to them, almost everyone in the Caribbean is
impacted directly or indirectly by America, even if they don't realize it; e.g.,
you dont think people in Cuba think about America?

john

Cruising Chrissy
11-05-2004, 11:57 AM
On 10 May 2004 05:33:26 -0700, ychen@bmwe30.net (Yaofeng) wrote:

>
>The people in the Carribean you know may be thingking about America
>all the time, not the ones I know. They got their own life and
>problems to deal with. Why would they be thinking about something
>unrelated to them thousands of miles away?

Unrelated? The USA invades Caribbean islands, trains guerillas on
Caribbean islands, Jon Doe warrants Caribbean financial leaders,
maintains a military bases, and provides the majority of their tourist
dollars which drive their economies.

Unrelated?

LOL

Cruising Chrissy
11-05-2004, 11:57 AM
On 9 May 2004 09:29:02 -0700, timclifton@canada.com (Slim) wrote:

>He felt American policies were fueling the drug traffic in the
>region.

Americans fuel the drug problem.

>Generally Canada is left out of the economic argument because
>we are relatively small. But never forget that Reagan once
>called the Caribbean an "American lake". Google Reagan
>and "American lake" and see.

Reagan was an idiot; now he is daft.

> The real question is how much
>the United States ends up dominating or controlling the
>various islands in the Caribbean.

As much as possible.

> If that influence
>is too much it will create some problems.

Then we will just have to "deal" with them like we always do.

DDupin
11-05-2004, 11:57 AM
A small point, but I can think of several Caribbean islands that get most of
their tourist dollars from Europeans: Tobago tourists are about 80% British; on
Martinique and Guadaloupe, I would imagine about 90% French; Grenada gets a lot
of tourists from Britain and so does Barbados, but I don't know the percentage;
Cuba gets a lot from Canada and Europe, etc.



<< Subject: Re: Anti-Bush sentiment in Trinidad and Tobago
From: Cruising Chrissy >>


<< On 10 May 2004 05:33:26 -0700, ychen@bmwe30.net (Yaofeng) wrote:

>
>The people in the Carribean you know may be thingking about America
>all the time, not the ones I know. They got their own life and
>problems to deal with. Why would they be thinking about something
>unrelated to them thousands of miles away?

Unrelated? The USA invades Caribbean islands, trains guerillas on
Caribbean islands, Jon Doe warrants Caribbean financial leaders,
maintains a military bases, and provides the majority of their tourist
dollars which drive their economies.

Unrelated?

LOL >>

Ken Tough
19-05-2004, 07:57 AM
Slim <timclifton@canada.com> wrote:

>I got into a long discussion with the director of the museum on
>exports,
>especially bananas prices (generally) and considerable bitterness
>was expressed both towards the US and Europe.
>
>Why not, bananas are 10 times more at the grocers than the price the
>primary producer receives, this being standard with other crops in the
>3rd world like coffee etc.

Surprising. Europe (esp UK & France) went out on quite a
limb to support caribbean banana prices in the wake of huge scale
factory-farm dumping from US-sponsored central american outfits.
Then again, the hatred of past colonials seems to be impossible
to ever shift.

>Generally Canada is left out of the economic argument because
>we are relatively small. But never forget that Reagan once
>called the Caribbean an "American lake". Google Reagan
>and "American lake" and see. The real question is how much
>the United States ends up dominating or controlling the
>various islands in the Caribbean. If that influence
>is too much it will create some problems.

What's surprising is the influence of countries like Japan
on islands like Dominica. Why could they possibly care?
Because in the whaling world of 'one country-one vote',
buying-off a tiny island is very good value indeed.

--
Ken Tough

Cruising Chrissy
19-05-2004, 01:56 PM
On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:42:06 +0200, Ken Tough <ken@objectech.co.uk>
wrote:

>What's surprising is the influence of countries like Japan
>on islands like Dominica. Why could they possibly care?

Google on this ng and on rec.travel.cruises; insert Chinese +St.
Vincent or Chinese +Grenada.

>Because in the whaling world of 'one country-one vote',
>buying-off a tiny island is very good value indeed.

Ain't about whales, although I have to admit the Orientals at least
picked a diversionary topic that is, symbolically, as large as
possible.

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