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Bobby Fischler
22-07-2004, 07:37 AM
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news


Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44

L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.

Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.

"I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.

"Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
and now we realised it was not so.

"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."

"Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
the climb," he added.

Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
at the ski resort.

"I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
American.


Reminds me of Kerry voters calling American military veterans
"babykillers."


http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1879

http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-07-10/local/200407103427.shtml

An Iraq War veteran says he was called a "murderer" while marching in
Sunday's Grand Old Fourth parade on Bainbridge Island. It was an
accusation that has sparked horror among islanders and anger across
the country.

There are conflicting versions of the incident, but even the tamest of
them has generated apologies from islanders who say they didn't mean
to offend any veterans.

Jason Gilson of East Bremerton, who as a Marine corporal was wounded
in Nasiriyah early in the Iraq conflict and is now in the inactive
Ready Reserve, marched in Bainbridge's July 4th parade holding a sign
that said "Veterans for Bush."

He was toward the rear of a group of Bush supporters in the parade,
which featured several political groups. Along the route, he heard
booing aimed at the Bush supporters, he said.

On Winslow Way, however, he said a man and a woman approached him and
called him a "murderer," a charge reminiscent of events that occurred
to Vietnam War veterans when they returned home.

"You don't need to be attacking individuals for their partisanship,"
he said. "I was very unimpressed with the way the people of Bainbridge
Island were."

Kevin Dwyer, executive director of the Bainbridge Island Chamber of
Commerce, the event's sponsor, said the booing is widely acknowledged,
and he's not certain he can deny the "murderer" comments happened. But
he hasn't found anyone else who witnessed them.

Bill Knobloch, a Bainbridge city councilman and former Navy commander,
said he was in the area and heard the booing, but didn't hear anyone
insulting veterans specifically.

He also said that earlier in the parade American Legion veterans
acting as the parade's color guard were saluted and applauded.

Nonetheless, Gilson is getting apologies from a parade announcer, from
Dwyer and from Mayor Darlene Kordonowy. He also was contacted Friday
by U.S. Rep. Jay Inslee, D-Bainbridge Island.

One version of the incident e-mailed to The Sun and other media
outlets by Bainbridge resident and Vietnam veteran Frederick Scheffler
indicated Gilson also was called a "baby killer."

Scheffler said the incident was started when an announcer asked Gilson
what he was a veteran of. Gilson said it was done in a derisive
manner.

Deborah Cheadle, one of the parade's announcers, sent a letter to
Gilson afterward stating her question was not intended to offend him,
but Gilson continues to believe her tone was dismissive.

Dwyer said others in the area didn't think she was being derisive, but
Gilson and others believe it was the catalyst for a torrent of booing
and other insults, including the two aimed at Gilson personally.

The story got national attention when a Seattle Post-Intelligencer
column published Friday appeared on the popular Web site
Drudgereport.com. It's believed that millions of people log onto the
Drudgereport Web site each day.

The chamber fielded several calls Friday. The issue was discussed on
John Carlson's radio program on KVI. And the message board on the
Bainbridgeisland.com Web site received almost two dozen angry messages
Friday, more than twice the number of messages the board received the
entire month of June.

Kordonowy took at least one call herself Friday from an angry
Snohomish County resident. She said she hopes people don't think one
or two people are perceived as representing the island.

"Even if politically we are perceived as left-leaning, it does not
mean that is how we treat people," she said. "We are also very
tolerant and respectful of different points of view."

Scheffler doesn't agree, saying earlier Friday that he spoke with
someone who wanted to put a Bush sticker on his car, but was worried
it would be damaged by someone with a key.

"You expect that crap in a third-world country but you don't expect
that here," he said.

jenn
22-07-2004, 08:10 AM
Bobby Fischler wrote:

> http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
>
>
> Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>
> L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
> Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
> Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
> forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.
>
> "I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
> barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
> the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.
>
> "Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
> and now we realised it was not so.
>
> "There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
>
> "Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
> the climb," he added.
>
> Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
> challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
> urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
> at the ski resort.
>
> "I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
> don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
> American.
>
>
> Reminds me of Kerry voters calling American military veterans
> "babykillers."

since the GOP are well schooled in the art of manipulating the rubes it
wouldn't surprise me in the least if this were a Bush plant -- you HAVE
heard of the Reichstag fire I assume?

Rove apparently planted listening devices in his own office when Bush
was running against Ann Richards and then 'discovered them' and made
sure the press blamed them on the Democrats.

We can expect the Bushmachine to manufacture this sort of fool the rubes
scandal on a daily basis
>
>
> http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1879
>
> http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-07-10/local/200407103427.shtml
>
> An Iraq War veteran says he was called a "murderer" while marching in
> Sunday's Grand Old Fourth parade on Bainbridge Island. It was an
> accusation that has sparked horror among islanders and anger across
> the country.
>
> There are conflicting versions of the incident, but even the tamest of
> them has generated apologies from islanders who say they didn't mean
> to offend any veterans.
>
> Jason Gilson of East Bremerton, who as a Marine corporal was wounded
> in Nasiriyah early in the Iraq conflict and is now in the inactive
> Ready Reserve, marched in Bainbridge's July 4th parade holding a sign
> that said "Veterans for Bush."
>
> He was toward the rear of a group of Bush supporters in the parade,
> which featured several political groups. Along the route, he heard
> booing aimed at the Bush supporters, he said.
>
> On Winslow Way, however, he said a man and a woman approached him and
> called him a "murderer," a charge reminiscent of events that occurred
> to Vietnam War veterans when they returned home.
>
> "You don't need to be attacking individuals for their partisanship,"
> he said. "I was very unimpressed with the way the people of Bainbridge
> Island were."
>
> Kevin Dwyer, executive director of the Bainbridge Island Chamber of
> Commerce, the event's sponsor, said the booing is widely acknowledged,
> and he's not certain he can deny the "murderer" comments happened. But
> he hasn't found anyone else who witnessed them.
>
> Bill Knobloch, a Bainbridge city councilman and former Navy commander,
> said he was in the area and heard the booing, but didn't hear anyone
> insulting veterans specifically.
>
> He also said that earlier in the parade American Legion veterans
> acting as the parade's color guard were saluted and applauded.
>
> Nonetheless, Gilson is getting apologies from a parade announcer, from
> Dwyer and from Mayor Darlene Kordonowy. He also was contacted Friday
> by U.S. Rep. Jay Inslee, D-Bainbridge Island.
>
> One version of the incident e-mailed to The Sun and other media
> outlets by Bainbridge resident and Vietnam veteran Frederick Scheffler
> indicated Gilson also was called a "baby killer."
>
> Scheffler said the incident was started when an announcer asked Gilson
> what he was a veteran of. Gilson said it was done in a derisive
> manner.
>
> Deborah Cheadle, one of the parade's announcers, sent a letter to
> Gilson afterward stating her question was not intended to offend him,
> but Gilson continues to believe her tone was dismissive.
>
> Dwyer said others in the area didn't think she was being derisive, but
> Gilson and others believe it was the catalyst for a torrent of booing
> and other insults, including the two aimed at Gilson personally.
>
> The story got national attention when a Seattle Post-Intelligencer
> column published Friday appeared on the popular Web site
> Drudgereport.com. It's believed that millions of people log onto the
> Drudgereport Web site each day.
>
> The chamber fielded several calls Friday. The issue was discussed on
> John Carlson's radio program on KVI. And the message board on the
> Bainbridgeisland.com Web site received almost two dozen angry messages
> Friday, more than twice the number of messages the board received the
> entire month of June.
>
> Kordonowy took at least one call herself Friday from an angry
> Snohomish County resident. She said she hopes people don't think one
> or two people are perceived as representing the island.
>
> "Even if politically we are perceived as left-leaning, it does not
> mean that is how we treat people," she said. "We are also very
> tolerant and respectful of different points of view."
>
> Scheffler doesn't agree, saying earlier Friday that he spoke with
> someone who wanted to put a Bush sticker on his car, but was worried
> it would be damaged by someone with a key.
>
> "You expect that crap in a third-world country but you don't expect
> that here," he said.

Peter G
22-07-2004, 08:18 AM
Bobby Fischler wrote:
> http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
>
>
> Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>
> L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.

Perhaps the french thinks he's a jew? He should change his name to
Achmed or something,that should help.

abelard
22-07-2004, 08:30 AM
On 21 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0700, francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler)

typed:

>http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
>
>
>Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
>Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>
>L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
>Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
>Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
>Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
>Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
>forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.
>
>"I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
>barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
>the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.
>
>"Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
>and now we realised it was not so.
>
>"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
>saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
>
>"Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
>the climb," he added.
>
>Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
>challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
>urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
>at the ski resort.
>
>"I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
>don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
>American.

yes, it was a bit of a mess....
remember he crushed two germans....and he's been pushing ullrich
into second place for years...

quote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24590-2004Jul2_2.html
Merckx's 1975 attempt at a sixth Tour win was plagued with disasters.
During one stage a spectator socked him, injuring his kidneys. Doctors
advised Merckx to stop. He refused. Two days later, he touched wheels with
another rider and crashed. Nose smashed and jaw broken -- and wired shut
-- he sucked food through a straw for the remaining days of the race. Yet
he wouldn't quit, even though at his daily news conferences, the whole
dais would be shaking because Merckx, racked with pain, was shaking.

"Journalists followed him everywhere, waiting for him to retire," recalls
veteran cycling commentator Phil Liggett. "And he said, 'You can forget
it. I'm not giving up, even if I can't win the Tour de France. You will
say that the guy who wins only did so because I abandoned.' "
unquote

this is not new...~15 million people line the route.....some are
exhibitionists...they jump in the way....throw water over the riders
wave flags in their faces and much else....
it's not especially likely to be anything to do with irak...

'they' don't appreciate an outsider coming over and crushing 'them' year
after year....
the frog commentators spend enormous excitement on any hope the great
man is likely to be brought down to earth...especially by one of their
'own'....

a frog has led the tour for several days until yesterday....though the
writing was on the wall ever since he got the leadership in a
breakaway....
the idea that he could hold off armstrong for ever was daft...but it
didn't stop continual hype...
ullrich jumped a minute in a breakaway yesterday...and again the trumpets
came out....then the let down as armstrong wound him back and won
the stage....

armstrong is one of sport's all time greats....
the road was covered with graffiti today (that is traditional), today we
had lance bite their balls off' and 'epo lance'....(they keep accusing
armstrong of doing it by drugs...epo is an oxygen enhancer...he has
never ever tested positive...if he wins he must be cheating us
deserving locals)
feelings tend to run high at times!


--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
energy, education, politics, etc >800,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jipsey
22-07-2004, 08:48 AM
francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler) wrote:

>"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
>saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."

Two people? Hardly representative of the French people.
Try again, troll.

devil
22-07-2004, 09:07 AM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0700, Bobby Fischler wrote:


> An Iraq War veteran says he was called a "murderer" while marching in
> Sunday's Grand Old Fourth parade on Bainbridge Island. It was an
> accusation that has sparked horror among islanders and anger across
> the country.
>
> There are conflicting versions of the incident, but even the tamest of
> them has generated apologies from islanders who say they didn't mean
> to offend any veterans.
>
> Jason Gilson of East Bremerton, who as a Marine corporal was wounded
> in Nasiriyah early in the Iraq conflict and is now in the inactive
> Ready Reserve, marched in Bainbridge's July 4th parade holding a sign
> that said "Veterans for Bush."

I guess the last bit does indeed make him accessory to murder, doesn't it?

If he would disagree then indeed I would feel some sympathy for the poor
fellow. But with that, I guess he just got what he bought into.

It's actually reassuring to see that a good chunk of the US is coming back
to their senses and still do have strong moral values. And that they are
so upset with the thugs at the White House.

devil
22-07-2004, 09:07 AM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:18:17 +0200, Peter G wrote:

> Bobby Fischler wrote:
>> http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
>>
>>
>> Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
>> Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>>
>> L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
>> Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
>> Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
> Perhaps the french thinks he's a jew? He should change his name to
> Achmed or something,that should help.

I guess you just vindicated the spitters.

:-(

SeeSchloss
22-07-2004, 09:10 AM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0700, Bobby Fischler wrote:


> Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>
> L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion Lance
> Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.

Indeed, I've seen several German and American spectators behaving like
fuckers. I especially hated the one who hustled Jan Ullrich. However,
apart from waving flags upside down the French ones didn't do stupid shit...

Now tell me where does your "French spectators are spitting at American
Lance Armstrong" come from ?

Anyway, Armstrong was once again the best, although I found Ullrich's
style more impressive.

Bugman
22-07-2004, 10:21 AM
"Peter G" <pglasoe@broadpark_nospam.no> wrote in message
news:40fedd35$1@news.broadpark.no...
> Bobby Fischler wrote:
> >
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
> >
> >
> > Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> > Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
> >
> > L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> > Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> > Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
> Perhaps the french thinks he's a jew? He should change his name to
> Achmed or something,that should help.

Lance Armstrong sounds jewish?

jenn
22-07-2004, 10:43 AM
abelard wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0700, francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler)
>
> typed:
>
>
>>http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
>>
>>
>>Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
>>Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>>
>>L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
>>Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
>>Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>>
>>Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
>>Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
>>forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.
>>
>>"I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
>>barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
>>the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.
>>
>>"Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
>>and now we realised it was not so.
>>
>>"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
>>saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
>>
>>"Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
>>the climb," he added.
>>
>>Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
>>challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
>>urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
>>at the ski resort.
>>
>>"I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
>>don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
>>American.
>
>
> yes, it was a bit of a mess....
> remember he crushed two germans....and he's been pushing ullrich
> into second place for years...

on the other hand the most dangerous moment for Lance and Ivan Basso
came when a jerky American fan ran with an enormous US flag alongside
and tripped = he could easily have pitched the flag across the paths of
the bikers and dumped both of the top contenders

the Tour folks need to be paying some attention to protecting the top 3
or 4 riders better so that some nutcase doesn't decide to take out a
contender
>
> quote
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24590-2004Jul2_2.html
> Merckx's 1975 attempt at a sixth Tour win was plagued with disasters.
> During one stage a spectator socked him, injuring his kidneys. Doctors
> advised Merckx to stop. He refused. Two days later, he touched wheels with
> another rider and crashed. Nose smashed and jaw broken -- and wired shut
> -- he sucked food through a straw for the remaining days of the race. Yet
> he wouldn't quit, even though at his daily news conferences, the whole
> dais would be shaking because Merckx, racked with pain, was shaking.
>
> "Journalists followed him everywhere, waiting for him to retire," recalls
> veteran cycling commentator Phil Liggett. "And he said, 'You can forget
> it. I'm not giving up, even if I can't win the Tour de France. You will
> say that the guy who wins only did so because I abandoned.' "
> unquote
>
> this is not new...~15 million people line the route.....some are
> exhibitionists...they jump in the way....throw water over the riders
> wave flags in their faces and much else....
> it's not especially likely to be anything to do with irak...
>
> 'they' don't appreciate an outsider coming over and crushing 'them' year
> after year....
> the frog commentators spend enormous excitement on any hope the great
> man is likely to be brought down to earth...especially by one of their
> 'own'....
>
> a frog has led the tour for several days until yesterday....though the
> writing was on the wall ever since he got the leadership in a
> breakaway....
> the idea that he could hold off armstrong for ever was daft...but it
> didn't stop continual hype...
> ullrich jumped a minute in a breakaway yesterday...and again the trumpets
> came out....then the let down as armstrong wound him back and won
> the stage....
>
> armstrong is one of sport's all time greats....
> the road was covered with graffiti today (that is traditional), today we
> had lance bite their balls off' and 'epo lance'....(they keep accusing
> armstrong of doing it by drugs...epo is an oxygen enhancer...he has
> never ever tested positive...if he wins he must be cheating us
> deserving locals)
> feelings tend to run high at times!
>
>

jenn
22-07-2004, 10:44 AM
SeeSchloss wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0700, Bobby Fischler wrote:
>
>
>
>>Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>>
>>L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
>>Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion Lance
>>Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
>
> Indeed, I've seen several German and American spectators behaving like
> fuckers. I especially hated the one who hustled Jan Ullrich. However,
> apart from waving flags upside down the French ones didn't do stupid shit...
>
> Now tell me where does your "French spectators are spitting at American
> Lance Armstrong" come from ?

uh from the director of the Tour de France -- or do you think he is
making it up?
>
> Anyway, Armstrong was once again the best, although I found Ullrich's
> style more impressive.

abelard
22-07-2004, 11:51 AM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:43:37 -0500, jenn <jenn@hmplce.com>

typed:


>on the other hand the most dangerous moment for Lance and Ivan Basso
>came when a jerky American fan ran with an enormous US flag alongside
>and tripped = he could easily have pitched the flag across the paths of
>the bikers and dumped both of the top contenders

someone dropped a hat immediately in from of armstrong today....
and i saw another 13-14 yo wander gormlessly into the path...to be yanked
back quickly and unceremoniously by an elder....
much of this is part of the game...

>the Tour folks need to be paying some attention to protecting the top 3
>or 4 riders better so that some nutcase doesn't decide to take out a
>contender

it is very difficult to manage eg 3400+ kms this year

regards...

--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
energy, education, politics, etc >800,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard
22-07-2004, 11:52 AM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:44:50 -0500, jenn <jenn@hmplce.com>

typed:

>SeeSchloss wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0700, Bobby Fischler wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>>>
>>>L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
>>>Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion Lance
>>>Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>>
>>
>> Indeed, I've seen several German and American spectators behaving like
>> fuckers. I especially hated the one who hustled Jan Ullrich. However,
>> apart from waving flags upside down the French ones didn't do stupid shit...
>>
>> Now tell me where does your "French spectators are spitting at American
>> Lance Armstrong" come from ?
>
>uh from the director of the Tour de France -- or do you think he is
>making it up?

i don't think he named the 'nationality' of the idiots...

>> Anyway, Armstrong was once again the best, although I found Ullrich's
>> style more impressive.

--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
energy, education, politics, etc >800,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bobby Fischler
22-07-2004, 01:20 PM
jenn <jenn@hmplce.com> wrote in message news:<cdmmab$7d1$3@news.vanderbilt.edu>...
> Bobby Fischler wrote:
>
> > http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
> >
> >
> > Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> > Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
> >
> > L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> > Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> > Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
> >
> > Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
> > Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
> > forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.
> >
> > "I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
> > barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
> > the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.
> >
> > "Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
> > and now we realised it was not so.
> >
> > "There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> > saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
> >
> > "Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
> > the climb," he added.
> >
> > Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
> > challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
> > urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
> > at the ski resort.
> >
> > "I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
> > don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
> > American.
> >
> >
> > Reminds me of Kerry voters calling American military veterans
> > "babykillers."
>
> since the GOP are well schooled in the art of manipulating the rubes it
> wouldn't surprise me in the least if this were a Bush plant -- you HAVE
> heard of the Reichstag fire I assume?
>
> Rove apparently planted listening devices in his own office when Bush
> was running against Ann Richards and then 'discovered them' and made
> sure the press blamed them on the Democrats.
>
> We can expect the Bushmachine to manufacture this sort of fool the rubes
> scandal on a daily basis


LOL! Manufactured? Kerry went in front of a friednly Senate commitee
and lied his head off about bogus daily atrocities in Vietnam and
coined the baby killer term. Kerry provided no factual evidence to
back up his lies. He paraded a few shills who it turned out never
even put on a uniform let alone served in Nam. Kerry is a serial
liar.

Oddly, Kerry was one of only a few engaging in atrocities and free
fire zones plus burning down villages.

30 years later the liberals attempt to deny that they ever spat on
Vietnam Vets or called them babykillers. Well the lefties could not
hold back and within a few months they revert to form calling American
soldiers babykillers, murderers, etc. The liberals are so
predictable.

Adrian Bailey
22-07-2004, 01:26 PM
"Bobby Fischler" <francishals@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ae681794.0407211237.d519c16@posting.google.com...
>
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
>
> Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>
> L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
> Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
> Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
> forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.
>
> "I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
> barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
> the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.
>
> "Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
> and now we realised it was not so.
>
> "There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."

A lot of fuss over "two idiots". What about the other 99.999% of spectators?

> "Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
> the climb," he added.
>
> Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
> challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
> urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
> at the ski resort.
>
> "I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
> don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
> American.

I watched the event on TV and all the riders got through the crowds okay.
Not bad, considering that there were hundreds of thousands of fans on the
mountain.

Adrian

Adrian Bailey
22-07-2004, 01:28 PM
"jenn" <jenn@hmplce.com> wrote in message
news:cdmvb2$8bd$2@news.vanderbilt.edu...
> SeeSchloss wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0700, Bobby Fischler wrote:
> >>Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
> >>
> >>L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> >>Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion Lance
> >>Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
> >
> > Indeed, I've seen several German and American spectators behaving like
> > fuckers. I especially hated the one who hustled Jan Ullrich. However,
> > apart from waving flags upside down the French ones didn't do stupid
shit...
> >
> > Now tell me where does your "French spectators are spitting at American
> > Lance Armstrong" come from ?
>
> uh from the director of the Tour de France -- or do you think he is
> making it up?

You need to learn to read.

Adrian

Mxsmanic
22-07-2004, 03:09 PM
One should not confuse animosity towards a particular American cyclist
and animosity towards people of the same nationality. In this case,
it's mostly the former. I imagine quite a few fans are tired of seeing
Armstrong win.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Go Fig
22-07-2004, 03:21 PM
In article <rdfuf092jht5smmi4katt0vd9o02q9b5av@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I imagine quite a few fans are tired of seeing
> Armstrong win.


They may want to take in a movie on Sunday.

jay
Wed Jul 21, 2004
mailto:gofig@mac.com

Roger
22-07-2004, 04:40 PM
"Bobby Fischler" <francishals@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ae681794.0407211237.d519c16@posting.google.com...
>
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
>
>
> Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
>
> L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
> Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
> Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
> forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.
>
> "I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
> barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
> the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.
>
> "Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
> and now we realised it was not so.
>
> "There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
>
> "Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
> the climb," he added.
>
> Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
> challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
> urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
> at the ski resort.
>
> "I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
> don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
> American.
>
>
> Reminds me of Kerry voters calling American military veterans
> "babykillers."
>
>
> http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1879
>
> http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-07-10/local/200407103427.shtml
>
> An Iraq War veteran says he was called a "murderer" while marching in
> Sunday's Grand Old Fourth parade on Bainbridge Island. It was an
> accusation that has sparked horror among islanders and anger across
> the country.
>
> There are conflicting versions of the incident, but even the tamest of
> them has generated apologies from islanders who say they didn't mean
> to offend any veterans.
>
> Jason Gilson of East Bremerton, who as a Marine corporal was wounded
> in Nasiriyah early in the Iraq conflict and is now in the inactive
> Ready Reserve, marched in Bainbridge's July 4th parade holding a sign
> that said "Veterans for Bush."
>
> He was toward the rear of a group of Bush supporters in the parade,
> which featured several political groups. Along the route, he heard
> booing aimed at the Bush supporters, he said.
>
> On Winslow Way, however, he said a man and a woman approached him and
> called him a "murderer," a charge reminiscent of events that occurred
> to Vietnam War veterans when they returned home.
>
> "You don't need to be attacking individuals for their partisanship,"
> he said. "I was very unimpressed with the way the people of Bainbridge
> Island were."
>
> Kevin Dwyer, executive director of the Bainbridge Island Chamber of
> Commerce, the event's sponsor, said the booing is widely acknowledged,
> and he's not certain he can deny the "murderer" comments happened. But
> he hasn't found anyone else who witnessed them.
>
> Bill Knobloch, a Bainbridge city councilman and former Navy commander,
> said he was in the area and heard the booing, but didn't hear anyone
> insulting veterans specifically.
>
> He also said that earlier in the parade American Legion veterans
> acting as the parade's color guard were saluted and applauded.
>
> Nonetheless, Gilson is getting apologies from a parade announcer, from
> Dwyer and from Mayor Darlene Kordonowy. He also was contacted Friday
> by U.S. Rep. Jay Inslee, D-Bainbridge Island.
>
> One version of the incident e-mailed to The Sun and other media
> outlets by Bainbridge resident and Vietnam veteran Frederick Scheffler
> indicated Gilson also was called a "baby killer."
>
> Scheffler said the incident was started when an announcer asked Gilson
> what he was a veteran of. Gilson said it was done in a derisive
> manner.
>
> Deborah Cheadle, one of the parade's announcers, sent a letter to
> Gilson afterward stating her question was not intended to offend him,
> but Gilson continues to believe her tone was dismissive.
>
> Dwyer said others in the area didn't think she was being derisive, but
> Gilson and others believe it was the catalyst for a torrent of booing
> and other insults, including the two aimed at Gilson personally.
>
> The story got national attention when a Seattle Post-Intelligencer
> column published Friday appeared on the popular Web site
> Drudgereport.com. It's believed that millions of people log onto the
> Drudgereport Web site each day.
>
> The chamber fielded several calls Friday. The issue was discussed on
> John Carlson's radio program on KVI. And the message board on the
> Bainbridgeisland.com Web site received almost two dozen angry messages
> Friday, more than twice the number of messages the board received the
> entire month of June.
>
> Kordonowy took at least one call herself Friday from an angry
> Snohomish County resident. She said she hopes people don't think one
> or two people are perceived as representing the island.
>
> "Even if politically we are perceived as left-leaning, it does not
> mean that is how we treat people," she said. "We are also very
> tolerant and respectful of different points of view."
>
> Scheffler doesn't agree, saying earlier Friday that he spoke with
> someone who wanted to put a Bush sticker on his car, but was worried
> it would be damaged by someone with a key.
>
> "You expect that crap in a third-world country but you don't expect
> that here," he said.

From http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/sports/9211389.htm

Some riders said fans booed or offered beer. Armstrong complained that some
German fans were "horrible" but said crowd animosity "motivates me more than
anything."

"What I don't understand is when I watch the television, they cheer for
everybody. They don't spit on them," he said.

But he added: "This is big-time sport. People are emotional and excited. ...
It doesn't take away from my desire to win. I think it puts a little fuel on
the fire."

The ascent is classed as "hors categorie," or unrated - the hardest on
cycling's scale of difficulty. But Armstrong still climbed at an average
speed of 14.5 mph.

"Lots of emotion, lots of adrenaline," Armstrong said. "I wanted it bad
because of the history around this mountain and the importance to the race."

Roger
22-07-2004, 04:42 PM
"Peter G" <pglasoe@broadpark_nospam.no> wrote in message
news:40fedd35$1@news.broadpark.no...
> Bobby Fischler wrote:
> >
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
> >
> >
> > Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> > Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
> >
> > L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> > Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> > Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
>
> Perhaps the french thinks he's a jew? He should change his name to
> Achmed or something,that should help.

Update your stereotypes.

There aren't just French people in France.


From http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/sports/9211389.htm

Some riders said fans booed or offered beer. Armstrong complained that some
German fans were "horrible" but said crowd animosity "motivates me more than
anything."

"What I don't understand is when I watch the television, they cheer for
everybody. They don't spit on them," he said.

But he added: "This is big-time sport. People are emotional and excited. ...
It doesn't take away from my desire to win. I think it puts a little fuel on
the fire."

The ascent is classed as "hors categorie," or unrated - the hardest on
cycling's scale of difficulty. But Armstrong still climbed at an average
speed of 14.5 mph.

"Lots of emotion, lots of adrenaline," Armstrong said. "I wanted it bad
because of the history around this mountain and the importance to the race."

Ronald Hands
22-07-2004, 10:58 PM
Go Fig wrote:

> In article <rdfuf092jht5smmi4katt0vd9o02q9b5av@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
> <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I imagine quite a few fans are tired of seeing
>>Armstrong win.
>
>
>
> They may want to take in a movie on Sunday.


Fahrenheit 9/11 or Outfoxed?

steven x brown
22-07-2004, 11:00 PM
In article <78KdnceH29cENmLdRVn-qA@edaptivity.com>,
rhands@mountaincable.net says...
> Go Fig wrote:
>
> > In article <rdfuf092jht5smmi4katt0vd9o02q9b5av@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
> > <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I imagine quite a few fans are tired of seeing
> >>Armstrong win.
> >
> >
> >
> > They may want to take in a movie on Sunday.
>
>
> Fahrenheit 9/11 or Outfoxed?

He said 'movie', not party political broadcast for the Democrap Party.

--
steven x brown
http://www.sharpeworld.com/main/
http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/
http://thora.org/main.html

Scott in Florida
23-07-2004, 12:18 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:09:07 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>One should not confuse animosity towards a particular American cyclist
>and animosity towards people of the same nationality. In this case,
>it's mostly the former. I imagine quite a few fans are tired of seeing
>Armstrong win.

Why would they be tired of seeing him win?

-----

--Scott in Florida

Eyeball Kid
23-07-2004, 12:20 AM
In article <j3ptf0ls1thuid7li5qi50t3q52fmjl3nv@4ax.com>, Jipsey
<jipsey@tcomcastd0t.net> wrote:

> francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler) wrote:
>
> >"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> >saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
>
> Two people? Hardly representative of the French people.
> Try again, troll.
>

If two French nationals spitting at Armstrong do not represent the
"French people", then one or two mercenary and military torturers and
rapists at Abu Ghraib do not represent the "US people".

The problem is, it wasn't one or two torturers and rapists.

E. K.

--
"Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he
makes and we should just support that."-Britney Spears, 9/2003

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers." -President Bush, October 8,
2003, The Republican National Committee Presidential Gala.

Free humor. Whenever you want. http://www.psmueller.com

Jeremy Henderson
23-07-2004, 03:35 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:09:07 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> One should not confuse animosity towards a particular American cyclist
> and animosity towards people of the same nationality. In this case,
> it's mostly the former. I imagine quite a few fans are tired of seeing
> Armstrong win.

I don't think they're tired of seeing him win so much as disappointed that
there is no Frenchman close to winning.

A bit like the British and Wimbledon.

A contributory factor this year will be that if he wins again that's an
all-time record that a lot of people, with some justification, don't think
properly reflects his place in cycling history.

J;

--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG

Jeremy Henderson
23-07-2004, 03:36 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:20:25 -0700, Eyeball Kid wrote:

> In article <j3ptf0ls1thuid7li5qi50t3q52fmjl3nv@4ax.com>, Jipsey
> <jipsey@tcomcastd0t.net> wrote:
>
>> francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler) wrote:
>>
>> >"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
>> >saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
>>
>> Two people? Hardly representative of the French people.
>> Try again, troll.
>>
>
> If two French nationals spitting at Armstrong do not represent the
> "French people", then one or two mercenary and military torturers and
> rapists at Abu Ghraib do not represent the "US people".

They do if they were carrying out official policy.

J;

--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG

Mxsmanic
23-07-2004, 03:44 AM
Scott in Florida writes:

> Why would they be tired of seeing him win?

Part of the interest of sports is variety and the suspense of not
knowing exactly who will win.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Mxsmanic
23-07-2004, 05:31 AM
Jeremy Henderson writes:

> I don't think they're tired of seeing him win so much as disappointed that
> there is no Frenchman close to winning.

Since French athletes hardly ever win anything, I don't see why this
would be particularly bothersome to them on that basis.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Jeremy Henderson
23-07-2004, 06:09 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:31:22 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> Jeremy Henderson writes:
>
>> I don't think they're tired of seeing him win so much as disappointed that
>> there is no Frenchman close to winning.
>
> Since French athletes hardly ever win anything, I don't see why this
> would be particularly bothersome to them on that basis.

The TdF is the only time they host the world's premier event in a sport.

As for "hardly ever wining anything", they won the football World Cup and
European Cup in recent memory.

J;

--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG

Magda
23-07-2004, 06:56 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:09:33 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Jeremy Henderson
<me@privacy.net> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

... On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:31:22 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
...
... > Jeremy Henderson writes:
... >
... >> I don't think they're tired of seeing him win so much as disappointed that
... >> there is no Frenchman close to winning.
... >
... > Since French athletes hardly ever win anything, I don't see why this
... > would be particularly bothersome to them on that basis.
...
... The TdF is the only time they host the world's premier event in a sport.
...
... As for "hardly ever wining anything", they won the football World Cup and
... European Cup in recent memory.

They do have selective memories, don't they ? ;-)

Roger
23-07-2004, 07:46 AM
"Eyeball Kid" <jfm6949@nospam.ispwest.com> wrote in message
news:220720040620252971%jfm6949@nospam.ispwest.com...
> In article <j3ptf0ls1thuid7li5qi50t3q52fmjl3nv@4ax.com>, Jipsey
> <jipsey@tcomcastd0t.net> wrote:
>
> > francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler) wrote:
> >
> > >"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> > >saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
> >
> > Two people? Hardly representative of the French people.
> > Try again, troll.
> >
>
> If two French nationals spitting at Armstrong do not represent the
> "French people", then one or two mercenary and military torturers and
> rapists at Abu Ghraib do not represent the "US people".

They were Germans.

>
> The problem is, it wasn't one or two torturers and rapists.

Mxsmanic
23-07-2004, 08:56 AM
Jeremy Henderson writes:

> The TdF is the only time they host the world's premier event in a sport.

France instigates a number of competitions, but they never seem to
actually win those competitions themselves.

> As for "hardly ever wining anything", they won the football World Cup and
> European Cup in recent memory.

The World Cup is among their inventions; their win was the first, as I
recall, despite the nearly century-long history of the competition.

Similarly, French winners of the French tennis open at Roland-Garros are
rare. And so on.

It's just not a country of athletes, and a quick look at the population
reveals why.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Tyler Banks
23-07-2004, 01:02 PM
Magda wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:09:33 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Jeremy
> Henderson <me@privacy.net> arranged some electrons, so they looked
> like this :
>
> ... On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:31:22 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
> ...
> ... > Jeremy Henderson writes:
> ... >
> ... >> I don't think they're tired of seeing him win so much as
> disappointed that ... >> there is no Frenchman close to winning.
> ... >
> ... > Since French athletes hardly ever win anything, I don't see
> why this ... > would be particularly bothersome to them on that
> basis. ...
> ... The TdF is the only time they host the world's premier event in
> a sport. ...
> ... As for "hardly ever wining anything", they won the football
> World Cup and ... European Cup in recent memory.
>
> They do have selective memories, don't they ? ;-)

It's not The SUPERBOWL or Baseball so it doesn't matter to them. They're
bumkins.
Where's the American in Formula 1? There hasn't been one in over a decade
and all the Americans do is race old low technology shitboxes in circles
during NeckCAR races (Nascar). There's been Frenchmen, and several.

emmanuel
23-07-2004, 02:18 PM
"Tyler Banks" <tbanksandfamily@yahoo.se> wrote in
news:2mba4cFlc9tmU1@uni-berlin.de:

> Magda wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:09:33 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Jeremy
>> Henderson <me@privacy.net> arranged some electrons, so they looked
>> like this :
>>
>> ... On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:31:22 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
>> ...
>> ... > Jeremy Henderson writes:
>> ... >
>> ... >> I don't think they're tired of seeing him win so much as
>> disappointed that ... >> there is no Frenchman close to winning.
>> ... >
>> ... > Since French athletes hardly ever win anything, I don't see
>> why this ... > would be particularly bothersome to them on that
>> basis. ...
>> ... The TdF is the only time they host the world's premier event in
>> a sport. ...
>> ... As for "hardly ever wining anything", they won the football
>> World Cup and ... European Cup in recent memory.
>>
>> They do have selective memories, don't they ? ;-)
>
> It's not The SUPERBOWL or Baseball so it doesn't matter to them.
> They're bumkins.
> Where's the American in Formula 1? There hasn't been one in over a
> decade and all the Americans do is race old low technology shitboxes
> in circles during NeckCAR races (Nascar). There's been Frenchmen,
> and several.
>

France also won the last 6 nations, beating world champions England to
complete grand slam. And speaking of rugby, it's a shame this sport is no
more popular in the USA, because the US team is truly interesting. The
Eagles lost 41-14 with honor against France during the last world cup, but
only 39-31 three weeks ago at Rentschler Stadium. It was a very pleasant
match that saw the lead change hands six times. The Eagles are mostly
amateurs, but they play the rugby I like, and there are some very good,
inspired players in this impressive team. They deserve better than a 6000
seats stadium when they play against the 6 nations winners.

SpellBinder
23-07-2004, 03:04 PM
> "Eyeball Kid" <jfm6949@nospam.ispwest.com> wrote in message
> news:220720040620252971%jfm6949@nospam.ispwest.com...
> > In article <j3ptf0ls1thuid7li5qi50t3q52fmjl3nv@4ax.com>, Jipsey
> > <jipsey@tcomcastd0t.net> wrote:
> >
> > > francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler) wrote:
> > >
> > > >"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> > > >saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
> > >
> > > Two people? Hardly representative of the French people.
> > > Try again, troll.
> > >
> >
> > If two French nationals spitting at Armstrong do not represent the
> > "French people", then one or two mercenary and military torturers and
> > rapists at Abu Ghraib do not represent the "US people".
>
> They were Germans.
>
What's the difference?
> >
> > The problem is, it wasn't one or two torturers and rapists.
>
>
>

Roger
23-07-2004, 03:41 PM
<SpellBinder> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b6a2e2e6d31a31698a000@text.giganews.com...
> > "Eyeball Kid" <jfm6949@nospam.ispwest.com> wrote in message
> > news:220720040620252971%jfm6949@nospam.ispwest.com...
> > > In article <j3ptf0ls1thuid7li5qi50t3q52fmjl3nv@4ax.com>, Jipsey
> > > <jipsey@tcomcastd0t.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I
even
> > > > >saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
> > > >
> > > > Two people? Hardly representative of the French people.
> > > > Try again, troll.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If two French nationals spitting at Armstrong do not represent the
> > > "French people", then one or two mercenary and military torturers and
> > > rapists at Abu Ghraib do not represent the "US people".
> >
> > They were Germans.
> >

> What's the difference?

Are you just PRETENDING to be stupid?

> > >
> > > The problem is, it wasn't one or two torturers and rapists.

LordAvalon
23-07-2004, 07:39 PM
A. Dulcimer <ADulcimer@network23.net> wrote in message news:<s6lvf0d1hlu8etpkrb063758bi6k4d8qs6@4ax.com>...
> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:46:35 GMT, devil <devil@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:43:26 +0000, A.Dulcimer wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:32:19 GMT, devil <devil@attglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:20:25 -0700, Eyeball Kid wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> If two French nationals spitting at Armstrong do not represent the
> >>>> "French people", then one or two mercenary and military torturers and
> >>>> rapists at Abu Ghraib do not represent the "US people".
> >>>
> >>>False analogy. First are just private individuals. Second are
> >>>government employees.
> >>
> >>
> >> how does that falsify the analogy?
> >>
> >> It doesn't
> >
> >Government employees dealing with foreign nationals do to some
> >extent represent US people, don't they?
> >
>
>
> They represent the US military and government in a professional
> capacity but they are not a representative cross section of the
> American people. The US military or any military for that matter
> isn't usually representative of the people.
>
> I do not believe that most Americans approved of what occurred in Abu
> Ghraib nor do I believe that most of the citizens of France approve of
> the spitting incident.
>
> I guess it boils down to the definiton of represent.
>
>
>
> --
>
> "It is not possible to find a leader more foolish then Bush, who deals
> with matters by force rather than wisdom. Kerry will kill our nation
> while it sleeps because he and the Democrats have the cunning to
> embellish blasphemy and present it to the Arab and Muslim nations as
> civilisation. Because of this we desire Bush to be elected."
>
> al Qaeda statement, 3/17/04

An organization is most of the time held responsible for the doings of
their employees in service. You should now that the Sarbanes Oxley Act
goes for more internal controls in the private organizations. If the
army of the United States of America is not able to spot repeated and
widespread abuses (what with the NSA and a dozen intelligence organs)
then there is something fishy.

There are murderers and psychopaths in every country in the world. If
they are allowed to enter US army in great number that is a deliberate
policy not some mistake or statistical happening.

anonymous
24-07-2004, 03:23 AM
Eyeball Kid wrote:

> In article <j3ptf0ls1thuid7li5qi50t3q52fmjl3nv@4ax.com>, Jipsey
> <jipsey@tcomcastd0t.net> wrote:
>
>
>>francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby Fischler) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
>>>saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
>>
>>Two people? Hardly representative of the French people.
>>Try again, troll.
>>
>
>
> If two French nationals spitting at Armstrong do not represent the
> "French people", then one or two mercenary and military torturers and
> rapists at Abu Ghraib do not represent the "US people".
>
> The problem is, it wasn't one or two torturers and rapists.

TRUE.

there weren't any at all.


>
> E. K.
>

Jeremy Henderson
24-07-2004, 03:33 AM
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:56:50 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> Jeremy Henderson writes:
>
>> The TdF is the only time they host the world's premier event in a sport.
>
> France instigates a number of competitions, but they never seem to
> actually win those competitions themselves.

Really? I can't think of any on the scale of the TdF - can you?

> It's just not a country of athletes, and a quick look at the population
> reveals why.

I don't think it does. A quick look at the US population reveals a lot of
fat slobs, but that doesn't stop US athletes sweeping the boards.

J;

--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG

Des O'Donoghue
25-07-2004, 12:43 PM
emmanuel wrote:
> "Tyler Banks" <tbanksandfamily@yahoo.se> wrote in
> news:2mba4cFlc9tmU1@uni-berlin.de:
>
>> Magda wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:09:33 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Jeremy
>>> Henderson <me@privacy.net> arranged some electrons, so they looked
>>> like this :
>>>
>>> ... On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:31:22 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> ...
>>> ... > Jeremy Henderson writes:
>>> ... >
>>> ... >> I don't think they're tired of seeing him win so much as
>>> disappointed that ... >> there is no Frenchman close to winning.
>>> ... >
>>> ... > Since French athletes hardly ever win anything, I don't see
>>> why this ... > would be particularly bothersome to them on that
>>> basis. ...
>>> ... The TdF is the only time they host the world's premier event in
>>> a sport. ...
>>> ... As for "hardly ever wining anything", they won the football
>>> World Cup and ... European Cup in recent memory.
>>>
>>> They do have selective memories, don't they ? ;-)
>>
>> It's not The SUPERBOWL or Baseball so it doesn't matter to them.
>> They're bumkins.
>> Where's the American in Formula 1? There hasn't been one in over a
>> decade and all the Americans do is race old low technology shitboxes
>> in circles during NeckCAR races (Nascar). There's been Frenchmen,
>> and several.
>>
>
> France also won the last 6 nations, beating world champions England to
> complete grand slam.

Helped in no small way by Ireland beating England..,.

poldy
25-07-2004, 05:30 PM
In article <pan.2004.07.21.22.10.49.203974@seeschloss.org>,
SeeSchloss <adresse-ng@seeschloss.org> wrote:

> Anyway, Armstrong was once again the best, although I found Ullrich's
> style more impressive.

Are there style points in cycling?

Is there any strategy other than to try to maximize your lead at the
stages which emphasize your strongest traits (climbing or sprinting)?

MR SMARTYPANTS
25-07-2004, 09:09 PM
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:30:01 GMT, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

>In article <pan.2004.07.21.22.10.49.203974@seeschloss.org>,
> SeeSchloss <adresse-ng@seeschloss.org> wrote:
>
>> Anyway, Armstrong was once again the best, although I found Ullrich's
>> style more impressive.
>
>Are there style points in cycling?

Ullrich style may have seemed inpressive but Lance's style has proven
to be more effective.

>
>Is there any strategy other than to try to maximize your lead at the
>stages which emphasize your strongest traits (climbing or sprinting)?

Yeah. Keep the guys that you are pissed at from winning any stages.
LOL! That goes against good strategy but Lance already had a large
enough lead to endulge in his bit of revenge.

Sam
25-07-2004, 11:17 PM
C-SPAN recently televised an old Dick Cavit Show with Kerry on it
after he had finished his 3 months in Vietnam, started in politics,
heard that he had to flip-flop to be politically correct if he wanted
to go anywhere in the Party, and started protesting the war.

Kerry stunned everybody with the announcemnt that he is a war
criminal. Upon questioning by Cavitt, he insisted that things he had
done, like burning villages, were war crimes under Internaional Law.

His defense? That virtually all Americans who served in Vietnam
likewise obeyed orders to do such things and were war criminals too.

Cavitt's other guest, a fellow Navy officer, bitterly disagreed and
complained about him slandering our verterans this way.

That was back in the day when you looked holy by calling our veterans
"babykillers."

Knowing C-SPAN, you can probably view a streaming video of this
program there at c-span.org.

So, the French want us to elect a self-confessed war criminal, eh? We
should impose on our military a Commander-in-Chief who has done this
to the men he served with, eh? Sorry, though the only other Republican
I voted for in 30 years was Reagan, Kerry lost my vote for this. He
looks too French to me.

Sam

"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<prILc.192$AY5.37@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Bobby Fischler" <francishals@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:ae681794.0407211237.d519c16@posting.google.com...
> >
> http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=551318&section=news
> >
> >
> > Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong
> > Wed 21 July, 2004 19:44
> >
> > L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (Reuters) - Tour de France director Jean-Marie
> > Leblanc has admitted he had seen fans spit at five-times champion
> > Lance Armstrong during the 15.5-km time trial to L'Alpe d'Huez.
> >
> > Leblanc also said the swarming crowds on the twisting climb on
> > Wednesday had frightened him as riders, including Armstrong, were
> > forced to weave through excited fans who jumped out on to the road.
> >
> > "I was scared too and I felt relieved when we reached the section with
> > barriers," Leblanc told Reuters after stage winner Armstrong described
> > the stage as a "bad idea" and hit out at some German fans.
> >
> > "Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea
> > and now we realised it was not so.
> >
> > "There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even
> > saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong."
> >
> > "Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometres of
> > the climb," he added.
> >
> > Armstrong, who stormed to victory nearly a minute ahead of his closest
> > challenger Jan Ullrich and now looks set for a record sixth Tour win,
> > urged organisers to think seriously about holding another time trial
> > at the ski resort.
> >
> > "I don't know if that's such a good thing for the Tour de France. I
> > don't think it's safe. I think organisers should watch out," said the
> > American.
> >
> >
> > Reminds me of Kerry voters calling American military veterans
> > "babykillers."
> >
> >
> > http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1879
> >
> > http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-07-10/local/200407103427.shtml
> >
> > An Iraq War veteran says he was called a "murderer" while marching in
> > Sunday's Grand Old Fourth parade on Bainbridge Island. It was an
> > accusation that has sparked horror among islanders and anger across
> > the country.
> >
> > There are conflicting versions of the incident, but even the tamest of
> > them has generated apologies from islanders who say they didn't mean
> > to offend any veterans.
> >
> > Jason Gilson of East Bremerton, who as a Marine corporal was wounded
> > in Nasiriyah early in the Iraq conflict and is now in the inactive
> > Ready Reserve, marched in Bainbridge's July 4th parade holding a sign
> > that said "Veterans for Bush."
> >
> > He was toward the rear of a group of Bush supporters in the parade,
> > which featured several political groups. Along the route, he heard
> > booing aimed at the Bush supporters, he said.
> >
> > On Winslow Way, however, he said a man and a woman approached him and
> > called him a "murderer," a charge reminiscent of events that occurred
> > to Vietnam War veterans when they returned home.
> >
> > "You don't need to be attacking individuals for their partisanship,"
> > he said. "I was very unimpressed with the way the people of Bainbridge
> > Island were."
> >
> > Kevin Dwyer, executive director of the Bainbridge Island Chamber of
> > Commerce, the event's sponsor, said the booing is widely acknowledged,
> > and he's not certain he can deny the "murderer" comments happened. But
> > he hasn't found anyone else who witnessed them.
> >
> > Bill Knobloch, a Bainbridge city councilman and former Navy commander,
> > said he was in the area and heard the booing, but didn't hear anyone
> > insulting veterans specifically.
> >
> > He also said that earlier in the parade American Legion veterans
> > acting as the parade's color guard were saluted and applauded.
> >
> > Nonetheless, Gilson is getting apologies from a parade announcer, from
> > Dwyer and from Mayor Darlene Kordonowy. He also was contacted Friday
> > by U.S. Rep. Jay Inslee, D-Bainbridge Island.
> >
> > One version of the incident e-mailed to The Sun and other media
> > outlets by Bainbridge resident and Vietnam veteran Frederick Scheffler
> > indicated Gilson also was called a "baby killer."
> >
> > Scheffler said the incident was started when an announcer asked Gilson
> > what he was a veteran of. Gilson said it was done in a derisive
> > manner.
> >
> > Deborah Cheadle, one of the parade's announcers, sent a letter to
> > Gilson afterward stating her question was not intended to offend him,
> > but Gilson continues to believe her tone was dismissive.
> >
> > Dwyer said others in the area didn't think she was being derisive, but
> > Gilson and others believe it was the catalyst for a torrent of booing
> > and other insults, including the two aimed at Gilson personally.
> >
> > The story got national attention when a Seattle Post-Intelligencer
> > column published Friday appeared on the popular Web site
> > Drudgereport.com. It's believed that millions of people log onto the
> > Drudgereport Web site each day.
> >
> > The chamber fielded several calls Friday. The issue was discussed on
> > John Carlson's radio program on KVI. And the message board on the
> > Bainbridgeisland.com Web site received almost two dozen angry messages
> > Friday, more than twice the number of messages the board received the
> > entire month of June.
> >
> > Kordonowy took at least one call herself Friday from an angry
> > Snohomish County resident. She said she hopes people don't think one
> > or two people are perceived as representing the island.
> >
> > "Even if politically we are perceived as left-leaning, it does not
> > mean that is how we treat people," she said. "We are also very
> > tolerant and respectful of different points of view."
> >
> > Scheffler doesn't agree, saying earlier Friday that he spoke with
> > someone who wanted to put a Bush sticker on his car, but was worried
> > it would be damaged by someone with a key.
> >
> > "You expect that crap in a third-world country but you don't expect
> > that here," he said.
>
> From http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/sports/9211389.htm
>
> Some riders said fans booed or offered beer. Armstrong complained that some
> German fans were "horrible" but said crowd animosity "motivates me more than
> anything."
>
> "What I don't understand is when I watch the television, they cheer for
> everybody. They don't spit on them," he said.
>
> But he added: "This is big-time sport. People are emotional and excited. ...
> It doesn't take away from my desire to win. I think it puts a little fuel on
> the fire."
>
> The ascent is classed as "hors categorie," or unrated - the hardest on
> cycling's scale of difficulty. But Armstrong still climbed at an average
> speed of 14.5 mph.
>
> "Lots of emotion, lots of adrenaline," Armstrong said. "I wanted it bad
> because of the history around this mountain and the importance to the race."

Magda
25-07-2004, 11:34 PM
On 25 Jul 2004 05:17:56 -0700, in rec.travel.europe, axy294@go.com (Sam) arranged some
electrons, so they looked like this :


... So, the French want us to elect a self-confessed war criminal, eh? We
... should impose on our military a Commander-in-Chief who has done this
... to the men he served with, eh? Sorry, though the only other Republican
... I voted for in 30 years was Reagan, Kerry lost my vote for this. He
... looks too French to me.
...
... Sam

That's right, you look much more like Shrubbie. Birds of a feather...

Frank F. Matthews
26-07-2004, 04:18 AM
poldy wrote:

> In article <pan.2004.07.21.22.10.49.203974@seeschloss.org>,
> SeeSchloss <adresse-ng@seeschloss.org> wrote:

>>Anyway, Armstrong was once again the best, although I found Ullrich's
>>style more impressive.

> Are there style points in cycling?
>
> Is there any strategy other than to try to maximize your lead at the
> stages which emphasize your strongest traits (climbing or sprinting)?

Probably the two strategies are to minimize the effect of your weakest
point (don't work to your strength) and to keep track of your serious
opponents. A 10 minute break away isn't a problem if the participants
are 60 minutes behind you. It is if one of them is 4 minutes back.

Style is, of course, a matter of taste. Personally I prefer Armstrong's
high pressure consistent drive to Ulrich's grunting power. For real
style I liked the Frenchman Voeckler who kept coming back and back,

Frank F. Matthews
26-07-2004, 04:21 AM
Right. Go with the guy who got daddy to get him a safe post and then
hid. Don't support someone who worked for his country.

Go Kerry

mange@merde.com
26-07-2004, 06:41 AM
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:21:08 GMT, "Frank F. Matthews"
<frankfmatthews@houston.rr.com> wrote:

>Right. Go with the guy who got daddy to get him a safe post and then
>hid. Don't support someone who worked for his country.
>
>Go Kerry

I wouldn't call someone who machine-gunned innocent women and children
to death as someone who "worked for his country".

Faking injuries to gt three bogus Purple Hearts is even more
appalling.

127.0.0.1
26-07-2004, 09:47 AM
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:41:09 GMT, "mange@merde.com" <mange@merde.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:21:08 GMT, "Frank F. Matthews"
><frankfmatthews@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Right. Go with the guy who got daddy to get him a safe post and then
>>hid. Don't support someone who worked for his country.
>>
>>Go Kerry
>
>I wouldn't call someone who machine-gunned innocent women and children
>to death as someone who "worked for his country".
>
>Faking injuries to gt three bogus Purple Hearts is even more
>appalling.
and then throughing them away is even worse, I'm amazed at how many
people this guy has duped into supporting him, his only positive is
that he isn't bush, that isn't enough of a reason to put him into any
office higher than dog catcher

poldy
26-07-2004, 10:15 AM
In article <PXRMc.39563$qa2.8823@fe2.texas.rr.com>,
"Frank F. Matthews" <frankfmatthews@houston.rr.com> wrote:

> Probably the two strategies are to minimize the effect of your weakest
> point (don't work to your strength) and to keep track of your serious
> opponents. A 10 minute break away isn't a problem if the participants
> are 60 minutes behind you. It is if one of them is 4 minutes back.

My point is that there's not as much strategy as in the team sports.

Sure you have to admire the stamina and abilities of cyclists. You also
have to admire their mental makeup to take them through the grueling
training and the events. But there is no strategy to deploy. Same with
swimming. Go as fast as you can for as long as you can.

Bobby Fischler
26-07-2004, 10:46 AM
"Frank F. Matthews" <frankfmatthews@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<8_RMc.39571$qa2.1517@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
> Right. Go with the guy who got daddy to get him a safe post and then
> hid. Don't support someone who worked for his country.
>
> Go Kerry

Kerry worked for the Viet Cong. He lied and smeared Vietnam Vets by
calling them "baby killers." Before Kerry and Hanoi Jane got rolling,
the N. Vietnamese were ready for a conditional surrender not long
after Tet. They decided to fight on thanks to Kerry, Hanoi Jane,
Ramsey Clark, Ted Kennedy et al.

The end result is the war dragged on for 5 more years with 20,000 more
dead. Thank Kerry. Kerry was later rewarded with a $900 + million
real estate contract for his cousin's company Colliers. Kerry is a
piece of garbage.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/20/131219.shtml