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22-06-2008, 06:18 AM
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#1
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Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
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22-06-2008, 06:50 AM
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#2
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
"Joe Curry" <egph@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:feoq54hkmepg7u15okeukbm4k5ruig0g99@4ax.com...
> Source: http://news.scotsman.com
>
> SCOTTISH Government plans to expand Edinburgh Airport run contrary to
> both environmental and commercial sense.
>
> Full Story..
>
> http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/So...0237.jp#2920827
Dr Gardner of the World Wrestling Federation or whatever it is, is
ill-informed. The governement can't expand the airport. Only demand from pax
and the airlines seeing fit to provide for it can. The airlines will only do
it if it makes commercial sense to their business but the way soaring fuel
prices and other obstacles are making it it ever harder for the airlines,
future growth looks harder to come by. The airport won't be expanding beyond
whatever the demand of the day is but of course a heathly vibrant airport is
great for the economy and essential for business and tourism. Dr Gardner and
his ilk who would rather Scotland was back in the dark ages could reduce
their own carbon footprints by not talking out of his exhaust pipe.
C
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22-06-2008, 05:34 PM
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#3
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
In article <6c57s5F3e4eikU1@mid.individual.net>,
clivebraham@nospamorange.net says...
>
> "Joe Curry" <egph@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:feoq54hkmepg7u15okeukbm4k5ruig0g99@4ax.com...
> > Source: http://news.scotsman.com
> >
> > SCOTTISH Government plans to expand Edinburgh Airport run contrary to
> > both environmental and commercial sense.
> >
> > Full Story..
> >
> > http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/So...0237.jp#2920827
>
> Dr Gardner of the World Wrestling Federation or whatever it is, is
> ill-informed. The governement can't expand the airport.
The expansion of EDI is a part of the national planning framework, so it
is part of government plans. The governement can (and possible has
already done so) safeguard the land required for runway or terminal
expansion.
> Only demand from pax
> and the airlines seeing fit to provide for it can. The airlines will only do
> it if it makes commercial sense to their business but the way soaring fuel
> prices and other obstacles are making it it ever harder for the airlines,
> future growth looks harder to come by.
Agreed. In the meantime, I was much more interested in this story,
repoerted in a couple of the papers yesterday
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/75ce3342-...00779fd2ac.html
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...h-speed-trains-
planned-in-UK-railway-blueprint.html
(High speed) rail travel is the way that the majority of domestic air
travel will end up in the coming years. Faster trains make less and less
sense to fly on point to point trips. Therefore there will be a decrease
in passenger numbers at Scottish airports that won't be filled by new
services.
> The airport won't be expanding beyond
> whatever the demand of the day is but of course a heathly vibrant airport is
> great for the economy and essential for business and tourism. Dr Gardner and
> his ilk who would rather Scotland was back in the dark ages could reduce
> their own carbon footprints by not talking out of his exhaust pipe.
>
> C
>
he could also point out the pointlessness of a building a third runway
at EDI - as Damien pointed out the other day, adding an ILS to 12/30
would be enough to provide a fully functional 2nd runway that could be
used for simultaneous operations, and also as a crosswind alternative.
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22-06-2008, 07:55 PM
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#4
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:34:29 +0100, The Voice of EDI
<thevoiceofedi@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>he could also point out the pointlessness of a building a third runway
>at EDI - as Damien pointed out the other day, adding an ILS to 12/30
>would be enough to provide a fully functional 2nd runway that could be
>used for simultaneous operations, and also as a crosswind alternative.
If you look at the masterplan..there wont be a third runway..the
existing 12/30 will be space for other airport use. The new northerly
runway will take a lot of noise away from built-up areas?
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22-06-2008, 07:58 PM
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#5
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:50:09 +0100, "Clive"
<clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
> The airport won't be expanding beyond
>whatever the demand of the day is but of course a heathly vibrant airport is
>great for the economy and essential for business and tourism.
And Edinburgh's current economy is Scotland's most vibrant.. Do you
suggest we wait until 2030 before deciding on a new EDI runway?
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22-06-2008, 09:29 PM
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#6
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
"The Voice of EDI" <thevoiceofedi@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.22c810de341404d0989819@News.Individual.NE T...
> In article <6c57s5F3e4eikU1@mid.individual.net>,
> clivebraham@nospamorange.net says...
>>
>> "Joe Curry" <egph@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:feoq54hkmepg7u15okeukbm4k5ruig0g99@4ax.com...
>> > Source: http://news.scotsman.com
>> >
>> > SCOTTISH Government plans to expand Edinburgh Airport run contrary to
>> > both environmental and commercial sense.
>> >
>> > Full Story..
>> >
>> > http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/So...0237.jp#2920827
>>
>> Dr Gardner of the World Wrestling Federation or whatever it is, is
>> ill-informed. The governement can't expand the airport.
>
> The expansion of EDI is a part of the national planning framework, so it
> is part of government plans. The governement can (and possible has
> already done so) safeguard the land required for runway or terminal
> expansion.
I know. That's right and proper but the government can't physically build
airport facilities and they will only be expanded in line with demand. So if
Dr Gardner feels air travel is on the slide, he needn't worry about the
airport expanding.
>
>> Only demand from pax
>> and the airlines seeing fit to provide for it can. The airlines will only
>> do
>> it if it makes commercial sense to their business but the way soaring
>> fuel
>> prices and other obstacles are making it it ever harder for the airlines,
>> future growth looks harder to come by.
>
> Agreed. In the meantime, I was much more interested in this story,
> repoerted in a couple of the papers yesterday
>
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/75ce3342-...00779fd2ac.html
>
> and
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...h-speed-trains-
> planned-in-UK-railway-blueprint.html
>
> (High speed) rail travel is the way that the majority of domestic air
> travel will end up in the coming years. Faster trains make less and less
> sense to fly on point to point trips. Therefore there will be a decrease
> in passenger numbers at Scottish airports that won't be filled by new
> services.
Yes, domestic flying will continue to decrease but hopefully, given the
right economics going into the long term future, international options will
continue to grow. Just at the moment it looks like the whole industry will
be shrinking rather than expanding.
>
>> The airport won't be expanding beyond
>> whatever the demand of the day is but of course a heathly vibrant airport
>> is
>> great for the economy and essential for business and tourism. Dr Gardner
>> and
>> his ilk who would rather Scotland was back in the dark ages could reduce
>> their own carbon footprints by not talking out of his exhaust pipe.
>>
>> C
>>
>
> he could also point out the pointlessness of a building a third runway
> at EDI - as Damien pointed out the other day, adding an ILS to 12/30
> would be enough to provide a fully functional 2nd runway that could be
> used for simultaneous operations, and also as a crosswind alternative.
That would be marvellous but really the main runway is aligned to the
normally prevailing wind. I'm not positive that the short runway could be
used permanently for full scale ops even if it had an ILS. I guess it could
when the wind is light or calm but if it could be used all the time, all the
better. No doubt it would cause a stink from the locals under the flight
path but that's always the case at any airport.
C
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22-06-2008, 09:34 PM
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#7
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
"Joe Curry" <egph@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fd8s54pqa4n5tjdoi0grmddaubr0qvhit0@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:50:09 +0100, "Clive"
> <clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
>
>> The airport won't be expanding beyond
>>whatever the demand of the day is but of course a heathly vibrant airport
>>is
>>great for the economy and essential for business and tourism.
>
> And Edinburgh's current economy is Scotland's most vibrant.. Do you
> suggest we wait until 2030 before deciding on a new EDI runway?
>
Land is safeguarded so there is no need to make a decision by any set date.
Rightly so we'll wait and see what demand dictates and if we ever reach the
point that a new runway would be required. Right now nothing at all is
certain.
C
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23-06-2008, 04:11 AM
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#8
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:29:50 +0100, "Clive"
<clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
>> he could also point out the pointlessness of a building a third runway
>> at EDI - as Damien pointed out the other day, adding an ILS to 12/30
>> would be enough to provide a fully functional 2nd runway that could be
>> used for simultaneous operations, and also as a crosswind alternative.
>That would be marvellous but really the main runway is aligned to the
>normally prevailing wind. I'm not positive that the short runway could be
>used permanently for full scale ops even if it had an ILS. I guess it could
>when the wind is light or calm but if it could be used all the time, all the
>better. No doubt it would cause a stink from the locals under the flight
>path but that's always the case at any airport.
According to BAA's master plan, the crosswind runway is destined for
obliteration.
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23-06-2008, 04:15 AM
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#9
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:34:40 +0100, "Clive"
<clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
>> And Edinburgh's current economy is Scotland's most vibrant.. Do you
>> suggest we wait until 2030 before deciding on a new EDI runway?
>Land is safeguarded so there is no need to make a decision by any set date.
>Rightly so we'll wait and see what demand dictates and if we ever reach the
>point that a new runway would be required. Right now nothing at all is
>certain.
As may be but we don't want to go down that unprepared road again. Air
Travel wont be replaced as the quickest International travel mode so
replacing the current crosswind runway with a more sensible
alternative isn't exactly rocket science.
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23-06-2008, 05:58 AM
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#10
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
"Joe Curry" <egph@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ie5t54ljuo7ltgb4i4b6oc1vrmvehfuc1b@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:34:40 +0100, "Clive"
> <clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> And Edinburgh's current economy is Scotland's most vibrant.. Do you
>>> suggest we wait until 2030 before deciding on a new EDI runway?
>
>>Land is safeguarded so there is no need to make a decision by any set
>>date.
>>Rightly so we'll wait and see what demand dictates and if we ever reach
>>the
>>point that a new runway would be required. Right now nothing at all is
>>certain.
>
> As may be but we don't want to go down that unprepared road again. Air
> Travel wont be replaced as the quickest International travel mode so
> replacing the current crosswind runway with a more sensible
> alternative isn't exactly rocket science.
>
>
Hence land is safeguarded for a new runway should it be required in the
future.
C
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23-06-2008, 06:08 AM
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#11
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:58:19 +0100, "Clive"
<clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
>> As may be but we don't want to go down that unprepared road again. Air
>> Travel wont be replaced as the quickest International travel mode so
>> replacing the current crosswind runway with a more sensible
>> alternative isn't exactly rocket science.
>Hence land is safeguarded for a new runway should it be required in the
>future.
Hence the projected EDI master plan highlighting two parallel runways?
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23-06-2008, 06:12 AM
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#12
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
"Joe Curry" <egph@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:da5t549a74t7ir1sptaek5b3hephhbv51u@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:29:50 +0100, "Clive"
> <clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>> he could also point out the pointlessness of a building a third runway
>>> at EDI - as Damien pointed out the other day, adding an ILS to 12/30
>>> would be enough to provide a fully functional 2nd runway that could be
>>> used for simultaneous operations, and also as a crosswind alternative.
>
>>That would be marvellous but really the main runway is aligned to the
>>normally prevailing wind. I'm not positive that the short runway could be
>>used permanently for full scale ops even if it had an ILS. I guess it
>>could
>>when the wind is light or calm but if it could be used all the time, all
>>the
>>better. No doubt it would cause a stink from the locals under the flight
>>path but that's always the case at any airport.
>
> According to BAA's master plan, the crosswind runway is destined for
> obliteration.
>
Only if a new parallel runway is built but the fact that BAA will still own
the airport in many years time (or even sooner) is uncertain. New owners
could make a new plan and keep 12/30 if they wish, presumably.
C
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23-06-2008, 06:17 AM
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#13
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
"Joe Curry" <egph@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:v6ct54d34lnvq7c2h9veul31mco4cs7ha1@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:58:19 +0100, "Clive"
> <clivebraham@nospamorange.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> As may be but we don't want to go down that unprepared road again. Air
>>> Travel wont be replaced as the quickest International travel mode so
>>> replacing the current crosswind runway with a more sensible
>>> alternative isn't exactly rocket science.
>
>>Hence land is safeguarded for a new runway should it be required in the
>>future.
>
> Hence the projected EDI master plan highlighting two parallel runways?
>
That's right. As I said land is safeguarded for a new runway should it be
required in the future.
C
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23-06-2008, 06:03 PM
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#14
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
In article <6c6rdkF3fj4afU1@mid.individual.net>,
clivebraham@nospamorange.net says...
> > he could also point out the pointlessness of a building a third runway
> > at EDI - as Damien pointed out the other day, adding an ILS to 12/30
> > would be enough to provide a fully functional 2nd runway that could be
> > used for simultaneous operations, and also as a crosswind alternative.
>
> That would be marvellous but really the main runway is aligned to the
> normally prevailing wind. I'm not positive that the short runway could be
> used permanently for full scale ops even if it had an ILS. I guess it could
> when the wind is light or calm but if it could be used all the time, all the
> better. No doubt it would cause a stink from the locals under the flight
> path but that's always the case at any airport.
>
> C
>
>
that's tru and I believe that in the old days, before the new runway was
built that there were many cancellations and diversions. However, I'd
see the runways being used together - say 12/30 for takeoffs in a
southerly direction plus 6/24 for landings. 12/30 (with ILS) is more
than capable of 95% of the movements we see at EDI. They could always
sneak the DL & CO takeoffs onto the "landing" runway if the need arose.
As for the noise complaints - if people buy houses near airports or
under flight paths, they should expect aircraft noise.
Anyway, I guess the main point here is that the proposed increase in
passenger numbers by 2030 does not look at all likely in the current
climate. A lot can change between now and then, but the assumptions that
led to the projections have almost already all been annulled.
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24-06-2008, 12:55 AM
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#15
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Re: Soaring oil prices will clip the aviation industry's wings
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:03:31 +0100, The Voice of EDI
<thevoiceofedi@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> That would be marvellous but really the main runway is aligned to the
>> normally prevailing wind. I'm not positive that the short runway could be
>> used permanently for full scale ops even if it had an ILS.
>that's tru and I believe that in the old days, before the new runway was
>built that there were many cancellations and diversions.
Correct..not so bad when the Vanguard Days but the introduction of the
BAe Tridents mearn't that diversions to Abbotsinch were commonplace.
Even a wet runway caused diversions.. one never know when a flight
from LHR would actually land at EDI or one was in for a coach journey
on the M8.
> However, I'd
>see the runways being used together - say 12/30 for takeoffs in a
>southerly direction plus 6/24 for landings. 12/30 (with ILS) is more
>than capable of 95% of the movements we see at EDI.
What's wrong with EDI modernising? You seem to have a reluctance for
EDI to upgrade..why?
>As for the noise complaints - if people buy houses near airports or
>under flight paths, they should expect aircraft noise.
A new runway would alliviate a lot of complaints..
>Anyway, I guess the main point here is that the proposed increase in
>passenger numbers by 2030 does not look at all likely in the current
>climate. A lot can change between now and then, but the assumptions that
>led to the projections have almost already all been annulled.
You have a link?
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