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01-04-2004, 10:50 PM
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#31
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"?ystein" <oystein@nettkjenning.com> wrote in message
news:af795b07.0403310544.6b18f4c7@posting.google.c om...
> howanski@mail.ru (Seriozha) wrote in message
news:<3cca8d0e.0403302303.69c90d85@posting.google.com>...
> > I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
> > about 10 times higher than in Russia.
>
> In a way I agree with you that it is fair. On the other hand
> foreigners experience that someone is after they money where they
> turn. You pay a mark up when driving a taxi, when visiting a museum,
> when you deliver your postcards at the hotel etc.
There is a similar practice in Spain, where you are allowed free entry to
some places if you show you national ID card, but pay if you don't have one.
Given that tourists in Russia are now forced to pay very high rates for
hotel rooms, they perceive this double tiered practice as getting ripped off
for everything else and this understandably leads to resentment.
Lana
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01-04-2004, 10:50 PM
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#32
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
szozu wrote:
> "?ystein" <oystein@nettkjenning.com> wrote in message
> news:af795b07.0403310544.6b18f4c7@posting.google.c om...
>
>>howanski@mail.ru (Seriozha) wrote in message
>
> news:<3cca8d0e.0403302303.69c90d85@posting.google.com>...
>>>I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
>>>about 10 times higher than in Russia.
>>
>>In a way I agree with you that it is fair. On the other hand
>>foreigners experience that someone is after they money where they
>>turn. You pay a mark up when driving a taxi, when visiting a museum,
>>when you deliver your postcards at the hotel etc.
> There is a similar practice in Spain, where you are allowed free entry to
> some places if you show you national ID card, but pay if you don't have one.
I suspect that with EU rules an ID card from anywhere in the EU would
suffice. After all those Indians make so much more than the Germans
that they should pay more for Spanish museums. FFM
> Given that tourists in Russia are now forced to pay very high rates for
> hotel rooms, they perceive this double tiered practice as getting ripped off
> for everything else and this understandably leads to resentment.
>
> Lana
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02-04-2004, 12:38 PM
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#33
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
If you appear foreign, stay away from Moscow police, they will find a reason
to search your travel papers , take you to an isolated spot or police van
looking for a shakedown/payoff.
They stole $1000 USD from me when they took me from Novy Arbat outside
Metelitsa nightclub in full view of the club's security (who are Moscow
police themselves, moonlighting). At least, those crooks had the decency
to leave me with all my T checks. Complaints to US embassy did not help.
I have never been back to Russia since.
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04-04-2004, 10:37 AM
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#34
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
pablo cee wrote:
> If you appear foreign, stay away from Moscow police,
Stay away from shady nightclubs, rather.
> they will find a reason
> to search your travel papers , take you to an isolated spot or police van
> looking for a shakedown/payoff.
>
> They stole $1000 USD from me when they took me from Novy Arbat outside
> Metelitsa nightclub in full view of the club's security (who are Moscow
> police themselves, moonlighting). At least, those crooks had the decency
> to leave me with all my T checks. Complaints to US embassy did not help.
>
> I have never been back to Russia since.
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04-04-2004, 10:37 AM
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#35
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"Björn Olsson" <gissa@min.adress> wrote in message
news:406d311e$1@PLUTO.HIS.SE...
> pablo cee wrote:
>
> > If you appear foreign, stay away from Moscow police,
>
> Stay away from shady nightclubs, rather.
>
This may help somewhat. However these rascals operate everywhere. They also
live in symbiosis with those who do the dirty job. Finnish charter bus
drivers used to have plenty of rubles in small denominators on the way to
Leningrad to pay "traffic tickets" (actually no tickets were written) on
highwaymen who are locally called as police. It was kind of funny. We showed
our middle fingers though windows and asked the bedouins to go begging
somewhere else. Once a driver got tired on the game and tossed pennies on
snowy street. "Police officers" didn't like this so he was forced for a
blood test in Viipuri. Once again we shouted the Russian fags to get lost.
Nice trips. I believe it is somewhat different now.
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04-04-2004, 10:37 AM
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#36
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Markku Grönroos wrote:
> "Björn Olsson" <gissa@min.adress> wrote in message
> news:406d311e$1@PLUTO.HIS.SE...
>
>>pablo cee wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you appear foreign, stay away from Moscow police,
>>
>>Stay away from shady nightclubs, rather.
>>
>
> This may help somewhat. However these rascals operate everywhere. They also
> live in symbiosis with those who do the dirty job. Finnish charter bus
> drivers used to have plenty of rubles in small denominators on the way to
> Leningrad to pay "traffic tickets" (actually no tickets were written) on
> highwaymen who are locally called as police. It was kind of funny. We showed
> our middle fingers though windows and asked the bedouins to go begging
> somewhere else. Once a driver got tired on the game and tossed pennies on
> snowy street. "Police officers" didn't like this so he was forced for a
> blood test in Viipuri. Once again we shouted the Russian fags to get lost.
> Nice trips. I believe it is somewhat different now.
Apparently it is. People seem to have learnt to behave themselves, and
don't fit the stereotype of the drunken Finn on holiday as often as in
the past.
Bjorn
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04-04-2004, 10:37 AM
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#37
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"Björn Olsson" <gissa@min.adress> wrote in message
news:406d5a06$1@PLUTO.HIS.SE...
> Apparently it is. People seem to have learnt to behave themselves, and
> don't fit the stereotype of the drunken Finn on holiday as often as in
> the past.
>
Absolutely. British travellers are the worst of all. Many ski resorts in
Central Europe refuse to take any groups (sometimes any tourist) carrying
Swedish passports.
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06-04-2004, 01:17 PM
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#38
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
On 1 Apr 2004 10:37:51 -0800, logicworks@hotmail.com (pablo cee)
wrote:
>If you appear foreign, stay away from Moscow police, they will find a reason
>to search your travel papers , take you to an isolated spot or police van
>looking for a shakedown/payoff.
>
>They stole $1000 USD from me when they took me from Novy Arbat outside
>Metelitsa nightclub in full view of the club's security (who are Moscow
>police themselves, moonlighting). At least, those crooks had the decency
>to leave me with all my T checks. Complaints to US embassy did not help.
>
>I have never been back to Russia since.
I have to disagree with this 100%. Ok it might happen but not like
how you are saying. when I went there, (I look nothing like russian I
am british) I went to a some moscow police, even talk to them, (try a
few words I learnt from my wife in russian) and spoke other parts with
english and they did not search my travel papers, etc..
you get this report of "POLICE ABUSE" in all countries.
----------------------------------------------------
reverse my email address, and remove the obvious
spam traps to reach me by email.
http://www.callthrough.tk/ = site not updated.
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06-04-2004, 01:17 PM
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#39
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"_T*R*A*P*S*I*H*T*E*V*O*M*E*R*_ okram (Mark Kelly)" <moc.dlrowltn.nojunk@>
wrote in message news:40704f84.10837153@text.news.ntlworld.com...
> On 1 Apr 2004 10:37:51 -0800, logicworks@hotmail.com (pablo cee)
> wrote:
>
> >If you appear foreign, stay away from Moscow police, they will find a
reason
> >to search your travel papers , take you to an isolated spot or police van
> >looking for a shakedown/payoff.
> >
> >They stole $1000 USD from me when they took me from Novy Arbat outside
> >Metelitsa nightclub in full view of the club's security (who are Moscow
> >police themselves, moonlighting). At least, those crooks had the decency
> >to leave me with all my T checks. Complaints to US embassy did not help.
> >
> >I have never been back to Russia since.
>
> I have to disagree with this 100%. Ok it might happen but not like
> how you are saying. when I went there, (I look nothing like russian I
> am british) I went to a some moscow police, even talk to them, (try a
> few words I learnt from my wife in russian) and spoke other parts with
A couple of years ago many Finnish travel companies boycotted the city of
Viipuri because their clients were assaulted so many times (mostly retired
and weak folks).
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03-06-2004, 01:56 PM
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#40
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
If you're heading to Russia, it might be worth checking out the
statistics on Nationmaster.com - you mentioned the GDP stats from the
CIA world factbook -well, this site has all of the factbook, plus
heaps more.
Good for checking out crime rates - I even checked out rates for
individual crimes like assault, robbery, etc....
http://www.nationmaster.com&sab=fgh
Have a great trip!
From: The Black Monk (cherniymonakh@hotmail.com)
Date: 2004-03-29 10:02:09 PST
"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowTHEKISSINGBANDIT@earthlink.net> wrote
in message
news:<ofK9c.3635$NL4.2624@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.n et>...
> bruce phipps wrote:
>
>
>
> Why anyone would want to visit a dump like Moscow is beyond me. There are
> tons of more visitor - friendly places to go. There are some places of
> historical interest,
The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> I guess, and a few museums of note,
Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
found in the west.
> but you can find
> those attractions in spades in charming locales elsewhere, and at lower
> prices and with less red tape to boot.
Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a ruder,
> surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find IMNSHO.
Never experienced that. Though they won't give you fake
have-a-nice-day smiles all the time.
> I was very tempted to visit the old USSR during the Cold War era...I guess
> it's the "forbidden fruit" aura that surrounds such a place (I spent
> extensive time in Czechoslavakia and the DDR, both of which I greatly
> enjoyed).
Might I suggest your second-hand impressions are biased by
anti-Russian Czechs or Germans?
> Now Russia is just something of a third - world dump, with none
> of the accompanying touristic third - world charms, e.g. beaches, cheap and
> good food, friendly "natives" who peddle quaint trinkets, cheap
> prostitutes, jungle/wildlife eco - tours, and the like....
Russian GSP PPP is comparable to that of Poland and the Baltics
(slightly higher than Lithuania's, Latvia's, Poland's).
Moscow per capita income according to figures from the CIA World
Factbook is about $28,000 per year PPP, higher than in most of Western
Europe, a fact quickly and obviously evident by anyone wandering its
streets.
> There is not yet much in the way of a reasonable tourist infrastructure:
> it's either absurdly - priced premium international chain hotels or down -
> and - dirty old Soviet - era hotels (from what I've read, where you are
> staying is a certified dump...take lots of cockroach spray!). Not much in
> the middle range. It's the same with food....
I can't vouch for hotels, I stayed w/family. As for food, there are
plenty of moderate priced restaurants ($10-$20 for a meal) such as
Yulki Palki, Mu Mu, Taras Bulba, with much better food than found in
most mid-range American restauarants (Denny's etc.).
> If you have lots of money, you can enjoy decent places to stay and dine. If
> you don't, forget it...Russia is simply not geared yet to cater to middle -
> class tourists (which the great majority of travellers are). The Moscow
> city government is planning to build some middle - cost tourist hotels (with
> help from French chains like Accor, etc.), but these are a few years down
> the road.....
>
> Oh, as for safety you should be okay. Because of terrorism, there is a
> strong police presence in the central areas.
You're right on that note. Moscow is incomparably safer in terms of
street crime than any Western city. Someone from England worrying
about being a victim of crime in Moscow is frankly quite absurd.
> And as long as you don't
> drive, you will not be shaken down by the notoriously - corrup GAI (traffic
> police). I've read numerous reports of tourists in St. Petersburg being
> attacked and pickpocketed by agressive swarms of gypsy kids, don't know if
> the same holds for Moscow....
Gypsies are rare but they do exist. They're rather tame in Moscow,
however.
> If you haven't considered it already, I'd suggest visiting the
> Baltics...still lots of history and it's in roughly the same area, but it's
> cheapier, friendlier, and more accessible by a factor of at least ten.
Baltics aren't that different from western Europe, though.
BM
>
> Enjoy your hols :-)
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05-06-2004, 07:40 PM
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#41
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Samuel South <joe5244@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ca3tb0t4ecfubka32jbdulp0gn5rjg0ns1@4ax.com>...
> If you're heading to Russia, it might be worth checking out the
> statistics on Nationmaster.com - you mentioned the GDP stats from the
> CIA world factbook -well, this site has all of the factbook, plus
> heaps more.
>
> Good for checking out crime rates - I even checked out rates for
> individual crimes like assault, robbery, etc....
>
> http://www.nationmaster.com&sab=fgh
Robbery per capita rates:
1. Spain 12.36 per 1000 people
11. USA 1.41 per 1000 people
19. Russia 0.91 per 1000 people
Björn
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05-06-2004, 07:40 PM
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#42
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Bjorn Olsson extrapolated from data available...
> Samuel South <joe5244@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<ca3tb0t4ecfubka32jbdulp0gn5rjg0ns1@4ax.com>...
>> If you're heading to Russia, it might be worth checking out the
>> statistics on Nationmaster.com - you mentioned the GDP stats from the
>> CIA world factbook -well, this site has all of the factbook, plus
>> heaps more.
>>
>> Good for checking out crime rates - I even checked out rates for
>> individual crimes like assault, robbery, etc....
>>
>> http://www.nationmaster.com&sab=fgh
>
> Robbery per capita rates:
>
> 1. Spain 12.36 per 1000 people
> 11. USA 1.41 per 1000 people
> 19. Russia 0.91 per 1000 people
>
Which only tells me that Spaniards are so offended (or have enough
confidence in the Guardia) to report robberies....
TMO
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05-06-2004, 07:40 PM
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#43
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"Olivers" <olive@LOSETHIScalpha.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94FE741E9DB6Aolive@216.196.97.132...
> Bjorn Olsson extrapolated from data available...
>
> > Samuel South <joe5244@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<ca3tb0t4ecfubka32jbdulp0gn5rjg0ns1@4ax.com>...
> >> If you're heading to Russia, it might be worth checking out the
> >> statistics on Nationmaster.com - you mentioned the GDP stats from the
> >> CIA world factbook -well, this site has all of the factbook, plus
> >> heaps more.
> >>
> >> Good for checking out crime rates - I even checked out rates for
> >> individual crimes like assault, robbery, etc....
> >>
> >> http://www.nationmaster.com&sab=fgh
> >
> > Robbery per capita rates:
> >
> > 1. Spain 12.36 per 1000 people
> > 11. USA 1.41 per 1000 people
> > 19. Russia 0.91 per 1000 people
> >
>
> Which only tells me that Spaniards are so offended (or have enough
> confidence in the Guardia) to report robberies....
It may well also tell us that these three very different legal systems have
very different definitions of "robbery".
Alan Harrison
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06-06-2004, 08:52 AM
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#44
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"Alan Harrison" <alantharrison@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<c9qpke$j88$1@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Olivers" <olive@LOSETHIScalpha.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns94FE741E9DB6Aolive@216.196.97.132...
> > Bjorn Olsson extrapolated from data available...
> >
> > > Samuel South <joe5244@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<ca3tb0t4ecfubka32jbdulp0gn5rjg0ns1@4ax.com>...
> > >> If you're heading to Russia, it might be worth checking out the
> > >> statistics on Nationmaster.com - you mentioned the GDP stats from the
> > >> CIA world factbook -well, this site has all of the factbook, plus
> > >> heaps more.
> > >>
> > >> Good for checking out crime rates - I even checked out rates for
> > >> individual crimes like assault, robbery, etc....
> > >>
> > >> http://www.nationmaster.com&sab=fgh
> > >
> > > Robbery per capita rates:
> > >
> > > 1. Spain 12.36 per 1000 people
> > > 11. USA 1.41 per 1000 people
> > > 19. Russia 0.91 per 1000 people
> > >
> >
> > Which only tells me that Spaniards are so offended (or have enough
> > confidence in the Guardia) to report robberies....
>
> It may well also tell us that these three very different legal systems have
> very different definitions of "robbery".
Well, maybe, but we actually do hear a lot of reports about robberies
in Barceclona and other major spanish centres.
Bjorn
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03-11-2004, 11:13 AM
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#45
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Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
nah
--
--
Chillu chi nun si fa l'affari sua, ccù la linterna va circannù guai:
He who doesn't mind his own business uses his lantern to look for
trouble.
<http://www.by-users.co.uk/>
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