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05-06-2004, 11:53 PM
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#1
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It has finally happened.
A travel agent has been prosecuted for selling return tickets which they knew
would only be used for a single journey.
The owner of the agency was found guilty of conspiracy to obtain airline
transportation by deception. There were other offences relating to the matter
for which he was also found guilty.
The airline was BA the person got sentenced to 12 months.
-
Lansbury
www.uk-air.net
FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
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06-06-2004, 02:00 AM
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#2
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Re: It has finally happened.
Lansbury <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote:
>A travel agent has been prosecuted for selling return tickets which they knew
>would only be used for a single journey.
>
>The owner of the agency was found guilty of conspiracy to obtain airline
>transportation by deception. There were other offences relating to the matter
>for which he was also found guilty.
>
>The airline was BA the person got sentenced to 12 months.
Yikes! Was the agent there in the UK? It would be interesting to know
which countries actually have laws prohibiting such sales, versus just
airline rules against it.
--
Ray Morgan
http://Fares-Fair.com/
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06-06-2004, 02:53 AM
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#3
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Re: It has finally happened.
On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:55:36 GMT, Ray Morgan <-@Fares-Fair.com> wrote:
>Yikes! Was the agent there in the UK? It would be interesting to know
>which countries actually have laws prohibiting such sales, versus just
>airline rules against it.
Yes it was a UK based agency.
-
Lansbury
www.uk-air.net
FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
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06-06-2004, 02:53 AM
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#4
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Re: It has finally happened.
"Lansbury" <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:djo3c0d5i72p7dk9a8h295fsjthrv7iacq@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:55:36 GMT, Ray Morgan <-@Fares-Fair.com> wrote:
>
> >Yikes! Was the agent there in the UK? It would be interesting to know
> >which countries actually have laws prohibiting such sales, versus just
> >airline rules against it.
>
> Yes it was a UK based agency.
>
> -
What is your source so that we can check details. I find it hard to believe
that "obtain airline
transportation by deception" has occurred just by not using the return
portion of the ticket. Maybe the TA has caused some kind of proffessional
misconduct towards the airline but for the "person" to get 12 months does
not ring true based only on the info you have provided.
MC
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06-06-2004, 02:53 AM
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#5
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Re: It has finally happened.
"Ray Morgan" <-@Fares-Fair.com> wrote in message
news:ghn3c018pc54f72vbgssm156u6sbi6qmmn@4ax.com...
> Lansbury <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >A travel agent has been prosecuted for selling return tickets which they
knew
> >would only be used for a single journey.
> >
> >The owner of the agency was found guilty of conspiracy to obtain airline
> >transportation by deception. There were other offences relating to the
matter
> >for which he was also found guilty.
> >
> >The airline was BA the person got sentenced to 12 months.
>
> Yikes! Was the agent there in the UK?
It is most unlikey that you could get a criminal conviction for this
in the UK. I note that there was no link to it.
> It would be interesting to know
> which countries actually have laws prohibiting such sales, versus just
> airline rules against it.
Like the EU rules which prohibit airlines charging different fares to
customers of different EU countries for the same journey which
most airlines just ignore. It's about time the managing director of
an airline was prosecuted for this.
tim
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06-06-2004, 03:53 AM
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#6
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Re: It has finally happened.
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:16:18 +0100, "MC" <notincognito@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What is your source so that we can check details. I find it hard to believe
>that "obtain airline
>transportation by deception" has occurred just by not using the return
>portion of the ticket. Maybe the TA has caused some kind of proffessional
>misconduct towards the airline but for the "person" to get 12 months does
>not ring true based only on the info you have provided.
I made it quite clear there were other offences involved as well.
The source as you obviously don't believe me is Recorder Anne Molyneux who
told the defendant "You conspired with others to obtain transportation by
deception and by so doing deprived British Airways of revenue to which they
were entitled"
-
Lansbury
www.uk-air.net
FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
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06-06-2004, 03:53 AM
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#7
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Re: It has finally happened.
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:17:19 +0200, "tim" <520010973502removethis@t-online.de>
wrote:
>> Yikes! Was the agent there in the UK?
>
>It is most unlikey that you could get a criminal conviction for this
>in the UK. I note that there was no link to it.
How can it be most unlikely when it was in a UK court, and what has a link to
something got to do with what happened or not, I'm not aware that court
records appear on the Internet yet.
Might be a good idea if you looked at the Theft Act and in particular with
those sections that refer to obtaining property or a service by deception.
-
Lansbury
www.uk-air.net
FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
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06-06-2004, 03:53 AM
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#8
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Re: It has finally happened.
"Lansbury" <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:g2s3c0h3kj1oi5tp7kjq0seth201h6d49u@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:16:18 +0100, "MC" <notincognito@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >What is your source so that we can check details. I find it hard to
believe
> >that "obtain airline
> >transportation by deception" has occurred just by not using the return
> >portion of the ticket. Maybe the TA has caused some kind of
proffessional
> >misconduct towards the airline but for the "person" to get 12 months does
> >not ring true based only on the info you have provided.
>
> I made it quite clear there were other offences involved as well.
>
> The source as you obviously don't believe me is Recorder Anne Molyneux who
> told the defendant "You conspired with others to obtain transportation by
> deception and by so doing deprived British Airways of revenue to which
they
> were entitled"
What we don't believe is that this comment was said with reference
to "booking a return for use as a single" and not one of the 'other
offences' that you refer to. It beggars belief that such an act
could result in a criminal conviction (and that the CPS would
bring charges in the first place). The normal response one
would expect is "if the airline are stupid enough to have such
a policy they can hardly complain if people abuse it".
There must be much more involved for a 12 month sentence.
tim
> -
> Lansbury
> www.uk-air.net
> FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
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06-06-2004, 04:54 AM
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#9
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Re: It has finally happened.
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:25:58 +0200, "tim" <520010973502removethis@t-online.de>
wrote:
>There must be much more involved for a 12 month sentence.
as he got a 12 month sentence for all the offences that much goes without
saying. It was a scam which cost BA thousands of pounds of which using return
tickets as single tickets was a part.
But the point is that obtaining a ticket by deceiving the airline that the
purchaser is going to comply with their conditions of sale, in order to obtain
a cheaper fare then if the true facts were known has been held to be an
offence. A point which has been discussed at length several times here.
-
Lansbury
www.uk-air.net
FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
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06-06-2004, 04:54 AM
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#10
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Re: It has finally happened.
"Lansbury" <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:ids3c0112gkgcb1bvt97ftj701o8d4dpea@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:17:19 +0200, "tim"
<520010973502removethis@t-online.de>
> wrote:
>
> >> Yikes! Was the agent there in the UK?
> >
> >It is most unlikey that you could get a criminal conviction for this
> >in the UK. I note that there was no link to it.
>
> How can it be most unlikely when it was in a UK court, and what has a link
to
> something got to do with what happened or not, I'm not aware that court
> records appear on the Internet yet.
>
> Might be a good idea if you looked at the Theft Act and in particular with
> those sections that refer to obtaining property or a service by deception.
Buying a return ticket, using one half and throwing the other
half away can never meet the necessary test for a criminal
conviction. There is no 'deception' here because there is no
requirenment for you to 'promise' to use the return. There
may be a civil action available for damages
tim
>
> -
> Lansbury
> www.uk-air.net
> FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
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06-06-2004, 04:54 AM
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#11
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Re: It has finally happened.
"Lansbury" <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:2hv3c05pqjd4o361svftrfrn0plcem50vf@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:25:58 +0200, "tim"
<520010973502removethis@t-online.de>
> wrote:
>
> >There must be much more involved for a 12 month sentence.
>
> as he got a 12 month sentence for all the offences that much goes without
> saying. It was a scam which cost BA thousands of pounds of which using
return
> tickets as single tickets was a part.
>
> But the point is that obtaining a ticket by deceiving the airline that the
> purchaser is going to comply with their conditions of sale, in order to
obtain
> a cheaper fare then if the true facts were known has been held to be an
> offence. A point which has been discussed at length several times here.
Only because you don't accept the view of absolutely everybody
else that it isn't dishonest to do this. I repeat, if the airlines are
stupid
enough to have a pricing policy that makes returns cheaper than
singles then they can have no complaint.
I still think that you have tagged the wrong quote to the wrong
'offence' (your terminology, I don't believe it to be so)
tim
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06-06-2004, 05:53 AM
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#12
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Re: It has finally happened.
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:23:27 +0200, "tim"
<520010973502removethis@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>"Lansbury" <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote in message
>news:ids3c0112gkgcb1bvt97ftj701o8d4dpea@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:17:19 +0200, "tim"
><520010973502removethis@t-online.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Yikes! Was the agent there in the UK?
>> >
>> >It is most unlikey that you could get a criminal conviction for this
>> >in the UK. I note that there was no link to it.
>>
>> How can it be most unlikely when it was in a UK court, and what has a link
>to
>> something got to do with what happened or not, I'm not aware that court
>> records appear on the Internet yet.
>>
>> Might be a good idea if you looked at the Theft Act and in particular with
>> those sections that refer to obtaining property or a service by deception.
>
>Buying a return ticket, using one half and throwing the other
>half away can never meet the necessary test for a criminal
>conviction. There is no 'deception' here because there is no
>requirenment for you to 'promise' to use the return. There
>may be a civil action available for damages
>
>tim
>
>
I'm not taking side here, but to my mind there is a difference between
a passenger doing what you describe, and an agent deliberately selling
return tickets as one-ways.
--==++AJC++==--
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06-06-2004, 05:53 AM
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#13
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Re: It has finally happened.
Hasn't BA ever conspired, over the years to, short change people?
I live in the provinces and and whilst BA would be making special offers from
Heathrow and Gatwick, anybody outside the home counties would be obliged to
stump up a considerable amount for for the add-on domestic portion.
Was it just a fairy tale, but long long ago, didn't Manchester Airport threaten
to sue BA for charging a load more for their flights to the States from that
airport?
My, how times have changed. I can now fly direct to many countries from my own
local airport, and cheaper now than I could all those years ago.
I suspect, that in this court case, the
deception was substantive and more than has been inferred in the course of
these correspondences.
So, who gains from all of this?... BA?....Don't think so, nor does your average
Joe, and he's hardly likely to shed a tear for them.
Perhaps the law profession could make a buck or two though. Are we witnessing
the dawn of a new ambulance chaser? Recompense for BA's injuries. I'll rush
off and get some legal advice on patenting the idea.
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06-06-2004, 11:53 AM
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#14
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Re: It has finally happened.
On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:15:27 +0100, Lansbury <lansbury@spamcop.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:16:18 +0100, "MC" <notincognito@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>What is your source so that we can check details.
>The source as you obviously don't believe me is Recorder Anne Molyneux who
>told the defendant "You conspired with others to obtain transportation by
>deception and by so doing deprived British Airways of revenue to which they
>were entitled"
Quotation marks conventionally mean you're quoting someone, so presumably
there's a written record somewhere that you can reference. Alternatively,
you may have been in court at the time and heard the words yourself, in
which case proving date/time/location information will be even easier for
you.
And without wanting to seem rude; why should I take a stranger's word on
trust, when even my children lie to me?
DaveM
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06-06-2004, 08:53 PM
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#15
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Re: It has finally happened.
In message <ids3c0112gkgcb1bvt97ftj701o8d4dpea@4ax.com>, Lansbury
<lansbury@spamcop.net> writes
>On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:17:19 +0200, "tim" <520010973502removethis@t-online.de>
>wrote:
>> I note that there was no link to it.
>
> and what has a link to
>something got to do with what happened or not,
A web page link, the name of a newspaper reporting the case, the name of
the radio station covering the story, the trade association commenting
on the case, a Press Release from the airline concerned, etc. has
*everything* to do with it.
Doesn't your job require you to sometimes claim that people have done
something wrong? Don't you have to back up your claim of illegality by
quoting the Statute, Regulation etc.? Or, are they expected to take
your word just because you say so?
There is often an acerbic tone to your postings but underneath there is
usually something informative and helpful. Sadly you now seem to have
transmogrified into a first rate troll.
Malcolm
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